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looks like the very first freeze got my brown select satsuma
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GT
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 11 Jul 2010
Posts: 395
Location: Beaumont, TX (zone 9a)

Posted: Thu 09 Dec, 2010 11:29 pm

MrTexas,

thank you very much for your suggestion!

Yes, I do have small banks of dirt in addition to pipe insulators. Also, that plastic covers the entire plant from the ground to the top and is enclosed. I will reserve the light bulb method for really cold nights as an emergency measure. Sad

Regarding the temperature, it is something about our spot. We are usually 3-4 degrees below the forecast although I'm just 3-4 miles north from you!

Let's hope...

Thank you again!
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jrb
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 30 Dec 2008
Posts: 165
Location: Idaho Falls, ID zone 4A

Posted: Fri 10 Dec, 2010 2:25 am

I have to agree with Mr. Texas. Foam pipe insulation is a good insulator for something than generates heat or has a high heat capacity but the tree trunk doesn't have either of those characteristics. Banking soil allows heat to be conducted from the ground below in addition to insulating the tree. Also the water content of the soil, in addition to increasing the heat capacity of the soil, prevents the soil from dropping below freezing until the large amount of energy needed to freeze water has been lost from the soil.

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Jim
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GT
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 11 Jul 2010
Posts: 395
Location: Beaumont, TX (zone 9a)

Posted: Fri 10 Dec, 2010 4:23 am

Jrb,

Thank you very much! That makes perfect sence! I will modify my protective measures. Very Happy
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ivica
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 08 Jan 2007
Posts: 658
Location: Sisak, Croatia, zone 7b

Posted: Fri 10 Dec, 2010 7:02 am

buddinman wrote:
In the winter of 2009-2010 trees in our area that were on Carrizo and sour orange were killed, including the root stock.

Very interesting.
Checking "History for Beaumont, TX" for January 2010
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KBPT/2010/1/10/MonthlyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA
and Temperature Graph there I see the coldest snap was in period 8..12 January.
How reliable is that graph statistic (with respect to events in the area of killed rootstock) Question
(Statistic si for Airport, I'm assuming here that your location is 15 miles away).

Let's compare airports,
This one is 25 miles away from my place, the coldest period was in December 2009:
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/LDZA/2009/12/10/MonthlyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA

Your airport: Minimal temp -7C, +16C followed a day or two later.
My airport: Minimal temp -20C, +16C followed two days later.

I do have better statistic for my backyard, data copied from
link
2009-12-21 min temp -16.6C
2009-12-23 max temp +19.6 C

Troyer Citrange (assumed to be very similar to Carrizo) grafted on P. Trifoliata "Siscia" had die off down to snow level. Graft line was a couple of centimeters below and Troyer regrow from there.

Maybe important question could be raised here:
What effect on cold-hardiness have frequent "Thaw-Freeze" events ?

In the case of Beaumont those were diurnal in the main period of cold attack. On the other side, at my place, temp was constantly bellow 0C.

Does that mean that "Frequent Thaw-Freeze" is worse then "Constant Freeze" Question

One more reason for me to think that way are conditions which Siscia Lemon have passed last winter w/o leaf lost. Temperature Conditions were worse than what I see on Beaumont graph. However, S. Lemon was protected from wind and sun, most of the time.

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GT
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 11 Jul 2010
Posts: 395
Location: Beaumont, TX (zone 9a)

Posted: Fri 10 Dec, 2010 11:40 pm

ivica,

very interesting statistics! Despite what the airport says, the thermometer on my house wall read -8.9 C one night and -8 the other...

Another factor that made a difference would be snow that actually protects plants keeping them warmer than the surrounding air. I think this is why your plant died above the snow level. Last year, we did not have snow, which made it harder on plants.

Thank you!
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Darkman
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 968
Location: Pensacola Florida South of I-10 Zone 8b/9a

Posted: Sat 11 Dec, 2010 1:44 am

I spoke with the University of Florida staff at their Live Oak farm where they grow Owari on Swingle and Trifoliate rootstock. Last Winter they had lows of 14.7 and many (over 30) days of below freezing. They used no protection and had no tree deaths. They said they experienced 20% - 30% leaf loss and nothing else. They said that the Swingle provided better protection than Trifoliate.

Tonight I met with a man who has 67 Owari and Brown Select Satsumas that are all on Trifoliate. He uses no protection and had no tree loss last winter. His trees are north of me and will generally be 5 - 9 degrees colder than me. My lows last winter were 19.5. He has ordered 150 more trees for this spring.

I have call in to U of FL Quincy farm to inquire about their trials but I have not heard back from them.

I'm not sure what all this means but it is more information to confuse my mind.

Here is a link to Florida weather stations that are accurate and you can download historical data. Anyone researching how weather effects cold hardiness will find these sites valuable. They have soil temps too.

http://fawn.ifas.ufl.edu/

Check it out

_________________
Charles in Pensacola

Life - Some assembly required, As is no warranty, Batteries not included, Instructions shipped separately and are frequently wrong!

Kentucky Bourbon - It may not solve the problem but it helps to make it tolerable!
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ivica
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 08 Jan 2007
Posts: 658
Location: Sisak, Croatia, zone 7b

Posted: Sat 11 Dec, 2010 7:05 am

Darkman,
thanks for the link.
Here is the link which could be, I hope, useful to mandarine grovers out there if they want to compare their local weather conditions with conditions in our mandarine area (lower valley of Neretva river, nearby towns Metkovic, Opuzen, Ploce):
http://pljusak.com/
Station is "VID":
http://pljusak.com/vid/wx.htm
Only one station in that area publicaly available for now.
To locate VID station start from Adriatic Sea and border of Croatia and BiH following Neretva river. Google Translation works OK.

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Sylvain
Site Admin
Site Admin


Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 790
Location: Bergerac, France.

Posted: Sat 11 Dec, 2010 10:04 am

Each time I take this road going to Kosovo or Albania I stop by the lakes of Baćinska north of Ploče. A very nice place. I also flown over this region in PPG (paramotor) taking off from the harbour of Ploče. It was fabulous.

A little off-topic.
Smile
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wd40
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 10 Dec 2010
Posts: 105

Posted: Sat 11 Dec, 2010 10:13 am

GT wrote:
ivica,

very interesting statistics! Despite what the airport says, the thermometer on my house wall read -8.9 C one night and -8 the other...

!


Location of your thermometer including elevation and its surrounding can have an effect on your reading.

You might find this helpful.

http://home.comcast.net/~dshelms/CWOP_Guide.pdf

Randy
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GT
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 11 Jul 2010
Posts: 395
Location: Beaumont, TX (zone 9a)

Posted: Sat 11 Dec, 2010 10:29 pm

Randy,

Thank you very much! Yes, i understand that my gauge may (and most likely will) read slightly higher temp than it should... The difference in 1-2 degrees is not that bad, is it? What I am saying is that despite it's location, the readings i see are lover than the forecast... I trust my gauge better. Very Happy
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wd40
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 10 Dec 2010
Posts: 105

Posted: Sat 11 Dec, 2010 10:57 pm

No, not bad at all. I recently installed a weather station. From the software you can get some good information I have on my weather station web site. Kind of neat.

http://mybaxleyweather.localweatherview.net
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GT
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 11 Jul 2010
Posts: 395
Location: Beaumont, TX (zone 9a)

Posted: Sat 11 Dec, 2010 11:07 pm

Randy,

that's really great! I should get one too. Smile
Thank you for the advise!!
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GT
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 11 Jul 2010
Posts: 395
Location: Beaumont, TX (zone 9a)

Posted: Thu 30 Dec, 2010 8:04 pm

Here is the update on the current situation:

The plant lost some leaves and the last growth seem to be dying back, which should be ok...

The only thing concerning me is that one branch developed a crack in the bark that seems quite deep. Here is a picture of it:


Could this crack be due to a frost damage? Sad
I covered it by a black pruning sealer for now...

Thank you!
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mrtexas
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 02 Dec 2005
Posts: 1030
Location: 9a Missouri City,TX

Posted: Fri 31 Dec, 2010 2:12 am

Yes, crack is from freeze damage. You don't have to do anything to it. It will heal on it's own in the spring.
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Millet
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 13 Nov 2005
Posts: 6656
Location: Colorado

Posted: Fri 31 Dec, 2010 2:28 am

The wound would have healed better if you had not covered it with the black sealer. When a citrus tree is pruned sealer should not be used. - Millet (746-)
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