Citrus Growers Forum

Polarbear · Joined: 23 Oct 2008 Posts: 14 Location: Kotka, Finland

Polarbear wrote:

qui avait obtenus des graines du nord-ouest de l'Inde.

obtained in north east India.

Sorry, correction to the previous message. Mistranslation: should be north west India.

I was thinking of Rangpur, which is in north east India.

Millet · Posted: Mon 27 Oct, 2008 5:02 pm

Polarbear, welcome to the Citrus Forum, we are happy to have you as a member. I have been to your web site many times. Very nice and very informative web site. - Millet

tidusid · Posted: Tue 02 Nov, 2010 11:47 pm

Millet wrote:

Polarbear, welcome to the Citrus Forum, we are happy to have you as a member. I have been to your web site many times. Very nice and very informative web site. - Millet

Wow, I clicked his profile and immediately recognized the URL. It is truly an honor to post in the same forum as some of the people who gather here.

pagnr · Posted: Wed 03 Nov, 2010 12:19 pm

I would say it is a Red Rough Lemon, C.jambhiri.

Malcolm_Manners · Posted: Wed 03 Nov, 2010 8:07 pm

My first thought was red rough lemon as well. Although it's not as rough as the ones we've grown. Exactly the right color though. And the blossom end is right.

Polarbear · Joined: 23 Oct 2008 Posts: 14 Location: Kotka, Finland

Millet said two years ago on this same thread in a message of his on Fri Sep 12, 2008 that there had been a presentation of a red lemon in California in the CRFG magazine March-April issue 2006. This lemon was managed by Paramount Citrus.

After about two years all I have found is

1. There is this Californian red lemon that is reported to be a mutation of the Eureka lemon that turns red when it is fully ripe. Have any of the Californian (or thereabouts) members seen or obtained this variety? Does anybody have a picture?

2. There is a 'Rosso' (i.e. red) lemon that is marketed as Citrus limon 'Rosso' by the Flora Toskana nursery, which is a German company. http://www.flora-toskana.de/onlineshop2/product_info.php?cPath=229_804&products_id=2133 I copied this from their website:

"As yet rather unregarded, the Red Lemon is now becoming more and more popular - which is not surprising because its red fruits are very decorative! As for the breeding of this variety not only lemons were chosen but assumedly also Lemon-Citron (Citrus medica), so that its fruits are very big. Rosso grows slighly more compact than other Lemons as e.g. Lunario or Feminello. Its crown is well branched and densely leaved. In spring (but also in summer to late summer) 2 - 2.5 cm long petals with sweet, intensive fragrance develop from purple coloured flower buds. The fruits are rounded to oblong with a dark yellow to orange peel with red nuance. Sometimes, also the fruit pulp is reddish.
Quality: intensly fragrant & big flowers; purple buds; bloom & fruits possible all-the-year; usable & and decorative fruits; evergreen & shiny & fragrant leaves
Use: in pots from April / May outside on balcony, terrace and in the garden - during winter in a winter quarter or greenhouse; all year in a heated greenhouse or bright room."

Interestingly they now report that it has citron Citrus medica in its genes as well. This should explain the appearance, which is not quite lemon-like with its deeply corrugated furrows. On the Internet and in discussion forums this is spoken of as an Italian variety but does anybody know if it actually grows in Italy or is it just the Italian sounding name of the German nursery or the Italian variety name 'Rosso' that makes this variety Italian?

3. There is another variety that was marketed for a while by the French nursery Hodnik as a red lime from Mexico (they no longer seem to have it). See an earlier message on the first page of this thread by Sylvain on Sep 13, 2008. In their reply they said however, that it is the same as the 'Rosso' variety above.

It would be interesting to know if the Californian red lemon resembles this citron × lemon cross or is it more lemony in appearance.

I have not been able to put this new variety on Citrus Pages mainly because
- I have not known what it is so I don't know where to put it.
- I have not had an adequate description of the tree, leaves, flowers, fruit or taste, but the information that Flora Toskana now has on its website helps a little.
- I don't have a picture. I don't know who has taken some of the pictures that are circulating on the net so that I could ask for permission to publish them.

I know that a couple of citrus people have obtained seeds, budwood or container plants but it will of course be years before they fruit. In the meanwhile, has anybody seen this fruit or tasted it?

As far as citrus classification goes here are some citron and lemon facts that botanists now seem to agree upon. In addition to mandarin Citrus reticulata and pomelo Citrus maxima the citron Citrus medica is one of the three original citrus species of the edible citrus group. Citron forms hybrids with other citrus types as follows:

1. Citrus × limon the lemon, which is considered a hybrid of citron and sour orange. In addition to the regular lemon varieties also such types as 'Meyer', 'Volkamer', 'Palestine lime', 'Lumia', 'Ponderosa' and 'Limetta' that were earlier considered species of their own are now classified as varieties of lemon Citrus × limon.

2. Citrus × jambhiri the rough lemon, which is considered a hybrid of citron and mandarin. In addition to the regular rough lemon varieties also such types as 'Canton lemon' (Mandarin lime), 'Rangpur', 'Otaheite', 'Kusaie', 'Assam' (Ada jamir), 'Winged lime' (Blacktwig), 'Vangasay' and 'Hill lemon' (Galgal, Gulgul) which were earlier considered true species are now classified as varieties of rough lemon Citrus × jambhiri.

3.1. Citrus × aurantiifolia the lime (Mexican lime, Key lime), which is a hybrid of citron, lemon and the small-flowered papeda Citrus micrantha (Biasong). Notice the three 'i' letters in aurantiifolia, which is correct Latin grammar.
3.2. Citrus × latifolia the Persian lime (Tahiti lime, Bearss lime), which grows neither in Persia nor in Tahiti, and is considered a mexican lime × lemon cross.

4. Citrus × bergamia the Bergamot lemon, which like lemon is also considered a cross of citron and sour orange, but is more often classified as a sour orange hybrid.

According to this scheme our 'Rosso' lemon would be a back cross of the lemon with citron [Citrus medica × (Citrus × aurantium)] × Citrus medica. This would make it a member of group 1. of lemons and not of group 2. the rough lemons, which have mandarin in their background. But before someone is able to establish the exact origin of this red beauty all we can do is speculate.

By the way, I'm sure most of you know this but the multiplication sign × that is used in botany as a sign of a hybrid, is a silent mark that is only added in writing. It is not pronounced in Latin names of plants. In known hybrids it can be read out loud as "a cross of x and y", for example. Importantly it is not the letter x.

tidusid · Posted: Thu 04 Nov, 2010 8:45 pm

Damn, they don't ship to the US.

grad85 · Posted: Fri 05 Nov, 2010 8:46 am

I have a Limon Rosso who has 2 fruits from this year now.
Maybe in time we can see if it,s the same you talk about.

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Polarbear · Joined: 23 Oct 2008 Posts: 14 Location: Kotka, Finland

tidusid wrote:

Damn, they don't ship to the US.

I am sure you know it is not Flora Toskana. I assume they would be happy to sell their plants. It is the U.S. regulations that strictly forbid all importation of citrus plants in any form, live plants, fruit or seed.

The U.S. customs now have dogs that are specially trained to detect the smell of any citrus in luggage, both carry-on and checked. An innocent orange forgotten in your backpack brings you a 300 dollar fine when a dog smells it. This is for first time offenders only. The incident is marked in your personal records and another attempt to import illegal stuff can cause immediate deportation or have more severe consequences. I kid you not. This is because of an important outbreak of a disease that once occurred due to a single fruit imported by a passenger. The fruit was infected with insects, which then spread to several states. The outbreak was finally contained and in the end successfully eradicated but the operation cost several millions of dollars.

I don't know of any governmental restrictions elsewhere that would be comparable to the U.S. regulations concerning the sale of live citrus plants both domestically and internationally. There are strictly enforced rules prohibiting the sale of uncertified citrus plants between states and even within the state of California. This is why many Internet shops say "We only ship to x, y and z" or "We don't ship outside the state of...".

I am sure it is for the best of all of us. Different countries and states have their own endemic diseases that the local rootstock have somehow adjusted to but which would cause havoc in areas where the disease is unknown. Poor citrus plants. They have been the subject of repeated man-made cross hybridisation for centuries and this has so degenerated their immune systems that our modern edible citrus plants are susceptible to dozens of infections that other plants in the same areas do not suffer from. Much as it would tempt to order plants from other states I am sure nobody wants to be found out as the source of a new infection that caused the death of all citrus plants in our own state.

Come to think of it, Australia is very strict about the import and export of citrus plants, especially the native Australian citrus but I suspect there are also commercial considerations behind the rules they have.

Polarbear · Joined: 23 Oct 2008 Posts: 14 Location: Kotka, Finland

grad85 wrote:

I have a Limon Rosso who has 2 fruits from this year now.
Maybe in time we can see if it,s the same you talk about.

Nice looking plants and pictures. It will be interesting to see the result. Keep us informed.

Lemandarangequatelo · Citruholic Joined: 01 Mar 2010 Posts: 485 Location: UK

plants4presents.co.uk used to sell a 'red lime' that looked exactly like the one pictured in the original post. I should have got one while I had the chance. The page with their pictures of trees with mature fruit is no longer up, but they have a page with pictures of trees with flowers:

http://plants4presents.co.uk/giftoptions.aspx?gif=205

When I enquired about their red lime they told me this:

The red lime is an unusual variety and is bred from citrus latifolia and
mandarin. I don't believe it is any hardier than the true Tahiti lime
(citrus latifolia) but it will stand temperatures down to 3-4C quite
comfortably. Funnily enough on checking the red lime labels today they
are labelled as citrus limonia (osbeck) Lima Rossa and other common
names include Chinese lemon, Cravo lemon, Medicinal lemon, Canton lemon, Cantonese lemon, Lemandarin, Mandarin lemon, Mandarin lime.

Lemandarangequatelo · Citruholic Joined: 01 Mar 2010 Posts: 485 Location: UK

Polarbear nice to see you posting. Your website is excellent and one of my favourites. It is possible to get your website as a single pdf file or document for offline viewing?

Polarbear · Joined: 23 Oct 2008 Posts: 14 Location: Kotka, Finland

Lemandarangequatelo wrote:

When I enquired about their red lime they told me this:

The red lime is an unusual variety and is bred from citrus latifolia and mandarin. ... Funnily enough on checking the red lime labels today they are labelled as citrus limonia (osbeck) Lima Rossa and other common names include Chinese lemon, Cravo lemon, Medicinal lemon, Canton lemon, Cantonese lemon, Lemandarin, Mandarin lemon, Mandarin lime.

I think some citrus plant growers must have full time employees whose job it is to make up these kind of stories for marketing purposes. Some simple citrus botany could be helpful though.

It is very difficult to breed anything from the Persian lime Citrus × latifolia because it is essentially sterile and does not produce viable pollen. The fruit are seedless. When seeds occur they are monoembryonic and zygotic meaning they have genes from two different parents (as opposed to the polyembryony of many commercial citrus varieties where the seeds are exact clones of the mother plant and will grow true to type). There are never seeds that would have Persian lime as both parents. When you get seeds the plant is no longer a Persian lime but a hybrid of some sort. In a study where 250 Persian lime seeds were planted only two seedlings looked like a Persian lime. Of the rest 40 per cent were more or less lime-like but 60 per cent of the seedlings were citrons, lemons and regular seedy limes.

So it is not possible to use Persian lime as the pollen parent to breed something one might desire on purpose. You can accidentally "breed" something because the very few and rare seeds of Persian limes can grow into any kind of unforeseen sour citrus type.

All the types mentioned on the label are more or less synonyms or varieties of what is better known today as Rangpur lime or mandarin lime. They were previously classified as Citrus limonia Osbeck. However, all these varieties are nowadays considered hybrids of citron and mandarin and are classified as Citrus × jambhiri Lush. 'Rangpur'. Most have orange skins when fully ripe. The Rangpur lime itself has many local strains around the world such as 'Santa Barbara', 'Limeira', 'Tatuatiringa', 'Bakrai' and the new 'Citrolima', just to name a few. Closely related mandarin lime types include 'Otaheite' and 'Kusaie'. This does of course not mean that your plant will be one of these.

Polarbear · Joined: 23 Oct 2008 Posts: 14 Location: Kotka, Finland

Lemandarangequatelo wrote:

Polarbear nice to see you posting. Your website is excellent and one of my favourites. It is possible to get your website as a single pdf file or document for offline viewing?

Thank you for your kind comments. I have many projects. I always do. One of them is to make a pdf file of my pages. But first there is so much else to do. I am in the process of revising both the mandarin and mandarin hybrid pages rather extensively. The main purpose is to bring it up to date with the modern botanic view of the whole class of mandarins. When I first made the page Satsumas were still Citrus unshiu etc. Now all mandarins are Citrus reticulata and they are grouped into far fewer groups than before. Plus I have many new varieties and new pictures.

I still make my pages in the old-fashioned way by hand, which is a lot of work but gets me the results and the lay-out I want. Another handicap of that is it is very laborious to change formats. Making pdf files would also mean that every time I up-date the page I have to up-date the pdf file as well.

Sorry, for the time being the answer is no unless you can recommend a free programme that can change the formats at the snap of my fingers and will produce identical pages with pictures in the same places. There is a lot software available that will print a html page as a pdf file. And there are programmes that will allow the reader to save a page he is viewing as a pdf file for his own use. I have tried some free software but the results are very sloppy and of poor quality. For instance, if the background does not show as dark green the text will be yellow on a white surface, which makes it impossible to read. One can make it black and white but that rather defeats the purpose of having colour pictures.

If you only want the text with no pictures it is rather easy to copy and paste. You choose Select all or highlight the whole page, right click Copy and save it on any text editor like Wordpad or Windows Notepad (not on Microsoft Word). This will give you the whole text in a neat form as plain text without any graphics, colours or pictures.

MarcV · Posted: Fri 05 Nov, 2010 7:08 pm

Polarbear, your site is one of my favourites also!
Just curious as you say you're going through a major revision of the mandarin pages: will you also be adding the blood clementines? Some places sell them but there is hardly any info to be found on blood clementines.

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