Joe-- your notes say --"Tree ripened fruits have poor to fair taste"--is there a better way to ripen them?

Your notes also mention poor graft compatibility on a certain rootstock-- that is not the same thing as the wild persimmon is it? Am I likely to have any problems putting the Izu on the Jiro next spring?

Most of those description on fruit quality is done when comparing soft ripe status and the non-astringent types will usually degrade in quality when left to ripen on the tree. Many people that I know love the crunchy non-astringent fruits and you pick them, although they are edible when they turned color, they are technically not soft ripe.

But there is still a method to improve the fruit quality after you harvest them. Here's one of my secrets:

Get a bucket with good airtight cover. Home Depot has them in 2 gallon size, although if you want plenty, you can use the 5 gallon buckets. Into the bucket, pour half a bottle of the cheapest vodka that you can find. Then place the biggest bowl that you can find that will fit inside the bucket. Load the persimmon fruits in there, then cover airtight, leave alone for 4 days, and sample each day thereafter until the ripeness or taste is good for you. This will remove any hints of astringency, and could change the color into deeper orange. Of course you can reuse the vodka or drink them, LOL!

As to the poor graft compatibility, it is based on grafting unto Diospyrus lotus rootstock, and I believe our native persimmons are D. virginiana. Of course, both the Jiro and Izu are D. kaki and should have no incompatibilities, unless you goof up at times on the grafting which happens to me every year on some of them.

Joe, you come up with some of the strangest things! LOL

Okay, please explain:

Is the bowl floating in the vodka? Does the vodka come into contact with the fruit? If so, what purpose does the bowl serve? If not, what function does the vodka perform? What are the principles at play here that led you to discover this secret?

Actually Harvey, it is one of the best kept secrets to removing astringency from persimmons. You can use other gasses, but this one is my favorite for obvious reasons that I am a wine maker.

There are in fact scientific literature to this process. Some clever scientists have figured out that wetting a needle in 95% ethanol and then puncturing the base of the petiole will be enough to cause the chain reaction within the fruit that removes the astringency. I may have the document on that somewhere in one of our computers.

the reason why you have the largest bowl that will almost fit inside the bucket is to separate the persimmon fruits from touching the vodka. The alcohol vapors are stronger than the Vodka liquid, and thus the need to separate them. Although stronger alcohol content can be bought now, just like the Bacardi 151 proof, they are very expensive. Reagent grade 95% ethanol can only be bought with special license but should be the cheapest if you have license to buy.

So the best ready alternative for the rest of us is the cheapest vodka, brandy, rhum, whiskey, gin that happens to be on sale.

It is not a strange method at all. The needle in alcohol trick is being used by many commercial growers of persimmons abroad. And you wouldn't need a lot of alcohol for the persimmon prick!

Thanks, Joe.

I should have been more precise and wrote "seemingly strange". Without background information and the explanation, it does seem strange. I'm curious why anyone would have ever discovered this. Thank God for researchers!

I could imagine in my mind some scenario where Joe is making wine one night with some vodka in the bucket. At the same time, some unexpected guests arrive who happen to love persimmons. Joe happens to have the last of his persimmon harvest sitting in a bowl on the counter. Although being generous in nature, he wants these for his family and decides to quickly hide the bowl in his bucket. The evening then gets late and he forgets about them and then gets busy the next morning performing a hundred or so grafts at a friend's house. The following day he is again busy going to church and family events. He then remembers his beloved persimmon a few days later and discovers a miraculous transformation, but decides to keep it a secret since he would not want his friends to know he had hidden the persimmons from them.

Perhaps my immagination is seemingly strange as well.

One more clarification, please, Joe. It seems from your original description that this method is used for non-astringent types. What about the Hachiya and the like?

Thanks!

I haven't tried the trick on the Hachiya's yet as those I can ripen nicely without this trick.

This trick is especially good for the PVNA types of persimmons like Coffee Cake, Agakaki, Akoumankaki, Amankaki, Brazzale, Bruniquel, Castellani, Cioccolatino, Giboshi, Hirota Kaki, Hyakume, Kaki Tipo, Kirakaki, Kourokuma, Kunitomi, Kuro Gaki, Lampadina, Mandarino, Mercatelli, Mikatani Gosho, Mizushima, Mizushima Gosho, Moro, Omya Wase, Portinnesto, Rispoli, Shogatsu, Thiene, Vainiglia

Problem with PVNA types is that some of the fruits don't get pollinated because of parthenocarpy, and therefore would be astringent. thus you'll never know if the next bite is going to burn your tongue, unless you eat them really soft ripe beyond mushiness, like a hairline away from being rotten. So the trick is employed to remove such non-uniformity of non-astringency.

Also for the PVA types like Sharon which can then easily pass off and marketed as Fuyu! The other PVA types would include Aizumishirazu, ConstantÍ 13, Edoichi, Hiratanekaki, Hiratanenashi, Koshu Hyakume, Monpei, Pakistan Seedless, Sugita Hiratanenashi, Sugita Wase, Tone Hiratanenashi, Tone Wase, Triumph

Not mentioned in this post are the PCA and PCNA types...

I would test the alcohol trick on the PCA types as soon as I have fruits this November. Persimmons can make up for fruits during the winter and the PCA types stay very well on the tree until the dead of winter. So even without citruses, it is possible to have fruits year round, just using the temperate crops.

But for me citruses are indispensable treat during the winter to spring months. Without them, my garden would never be complete.

i think you are going to ask what those acronyms stand for:
Pomological classification of persimmon fruits

pollination constant non astringent (PCNA) : Firm ripe fruits can be eaten fresh. Non-astringent type regardless of pollination.

pollination constant astringent (PCA) : Fruits must be completely soft ripe before it can be eaten.

pollination variant astringent (PVA) : Generally astringent when firm and flavor will change with pollination but still astringent when firm.

pollination variant non astringent (PVNA) : Generally astringent but when pollinated or seeded, astringency is dramatically reduced and can be eaten fresh when firm-ripe, otherwise should be eaten soft-ripe.

I'm afraid to mention it, Joe, but I have one Fuyu tree. I suspect I'll be convinced to graft more types onto it, though it is sort of a specimen/landscape tree as well and I don't want to disfigure it. Anyways, where does Fuyu fit into those classifications?

Thanks,

Harvey

Fuyu, Jiro, Matsumoto Wase (early bud sport of Fuyu:strongly recommended by yours truly for grafting), K-4, K-5 are all examples of PCNA.

and so are the following
Bangosho
Benisakigake
Cal Fuyu
Fujiwara Gosho
Fukuro Gosho
Giant Fuyu
Gosho
Hana Fuyu
Hana Gosho
Haze Gosho
Hyakami Gosho
Ichigikei Jiro
Ichikikei Jiro
Ideogramma
Izu
Jiro C. 24276
Koda Gosho
Maekawa Jiro
Midai
Mukaku Jiro
Mushiroda Gosho
Nishijo
Nishimura Wase
O’gosho
Oku Gosho
Suruga
Tenjin Gosho
Wase Fuyu
Yamato Gosho

Examples of PCA are
Anheca
Atago
BÉtera 1
BÉtera 2
BÉtera 3
Costata
Diospyros Virginiana
Enguera 1
Farmacista Honorati
Fennio
Ferran 12
Fuji
Garidells 16
Gionbo
Guilbecky
Hachiya
Kawabata
LA Selva 14
Lycopersicon
Picudo
Reus 15
Reus 6
Rojo Brillante
Saijo
Shinano Kogaki
Takura
Tamamoto
Tamopan
Tomatero
Xato Del Bon Repos
Yokono


And there are still other pomological types aside from the 4 that I mentioned, don't ask me about them, I guarantee that it won't be of use.

Practically all native american persimmons are PCA.

Their hybrids with the oriental persimmons are most likely PVNA or PVA.

I can attest to the fact that native persimmons are astringent-- I was tricked into biting one that was still green when Iwas a kid-- I still remember it--that was over 50 years ago!