Today in Denver, during the same time Mr. Obama was signing the Stimulus Bill inside the Denver Museum Of Science & History, the people of Denver were holding a huge Anti-Stimulus rally on the west steps of the Colorado State Capital building in downtown Denver. Most of the Anit-Stimulus demonstrators were wearing artificial pig noses (pork). I'll bet you won't see the anti-Obama rally on liberal television stations ABC, CBS or NBC. Lastly, I failed to list Joe Real as a man with good sense. But then everyone on this forum already knows the many outstanding qualities that Joe posses. We are lucky to have Joe as a member of this forum. - Millet (1,432-)

I have to credit my retired banker brother for part of the good sense. He retired from Bank of America a couple years ago. He is now working again for Washington Federal Savings and Loan, the best S&L in the country. WFSL is an old fashioned bank, they look at you in the eye and have never sold a mortgage, they hold all of them. When the other banks were growing and profiting from the housing bubble, WFSL was making a steady small profit. Now that the high flying banks have failed, WFSL is still making a small profit. Anyway, while visiting my parents in Seattle a few months ago I quizzed my brother about the causes of the panic and his response pretty much was there was no one cause, much fault to go around to all parties involved especially the regulators, banking being a highly regulated business.

I think the difference between republicans and demarcates can be summed up in answering one question. “Who is ultimately responsible?” for republicans the answer is the individual. And for demarcates it is the government.

The government plays a role for sure. It needs to do things the individual can not do.

It is NOT the government’s responsibility to feed me, but it should regulate to ensure that the food is safe to eat. Peanut butter

It is NOT the government’s responsibility to provide housing but it should make the place I chose to live safe. Through building inspection, zoning regulations, police, fire fighters.

It is NOT the government’s responsibility to provide me a job, give me money, or healthcare. But it should encourage business and help them to be profitable. Tax incentives have been a common way to promote business. Businesses should be encouraged to provide some form of healthcare. I personally like HSA. The government should not fund people’s retirement but encourage people to save for retirement (IRA, 401K) Retirement has changed in recent years.

The government DOES need to protect me from foreigner “enemies” I do agree we never should have gone into Iraq. We should have let Saddam Hussein do what ever he wanted to do to his own citizens, whether that be killing them with mustard gas or whatever. But now that we are there I believe we need to leave it semi-stable (which it appears to be occurring) I think we should leave Afghanistan as soon as possible. If the Soviet Union could not defeat the insurgents what make us think we can do any better.

Nice post gdbanks.

To morphinelover. Democrats have pretty well owned congress the last 4 years and for sure the last two. The reason things look bad during Republican times, is because republicans want people not to depend on the government, but rather lace their own boots up. However, I would say during the last year of Bush's term, I was very unhappy with the socialist ideologies that became the norm. I think the bailout was not properly handled and that all of the CEO's should have been stripped of their positions, not by the government, but rather the shareholders. The unions have cost Americans more jobs than any other group. They drive up the cost of everything. They make inflated wages, which in turn gets turned over to the union bosses to line their pockets and coffers. I live in a Right to Work state and the mentality between Right to Work and Forced union workers are night and day, generally speaking. Right to Work workers, say I will contribute more to my own health care, freeze my bonus and wage increase, scale me back to 35 hours a week, just do not lay me off. Forced union workers say, we have made enough concessions, never mind they are generally highly, contribute little to their own healthcare and expect a COL increase yearly and then they wonder why their jobs are outsourced. If you want health care, buy your own. I lived for years without health care, but I am a healthy person. Ultimately, one has to realize that when you point your finger at someone or something, you have 3 other fingers point back at you.

For all those looking for a handout, your rights end where my nose begins, or in today's terms, the reach of your hand ends where my pocket book begins. I am not saying this to be mean, but some people like, uh, octomom living off the backs of hard working Americans need the get the boot. I have been poor more than once and one learns a lot going through tough spells. Loosely quoted, as Kiyosaki puts it, "being poor is a state of mind, but being broke is a temporary inconvenience." During the last tech bust, I was laid off two months before Christmas with no warning and I burned through two months of savings and then some, my wife had just quit her job to stay at home my my oldest daughter and I could not find work, other than temp or contract jobs. So I took any jobs I could get, which included a paper route, scrubbing toilets in a factory, and part time POS support. I worked all three of those jobs and still did not make what I was making previously. I got little sleep, spent no time with my family, and ended up failing asleep on my paper route and damaged my care after running over a curb in a mall parking lot. I decided to start my own IT Services company in August 2003 and I have not looked back. Am I out of the woods? Not by a long shot, my family and I had to make a lot of sacrifices and tough decisions, but we can breathe better now and I am actually trying to get my house refinanced for 4.75% right now. I have also started a second company dealing with rental properties. The way I see it, some people get it and others do not and those that do not are the ones complaining about the government not doing enough.

/end rant.

Also, most countries in Europe are over 70% unionized and they don't have the problems we have in America because they don't put up with it. I think its time we start taking a page from there book on that one along with how they do health care. Have you ever asked yourself why we are ranked so low in health care (37th I think)?

I detect "phantom facts" replacing reality. Millet (1,431-)

You have to look at the TCO for unions and unless you have been on both sides of the fence, you only know one way. Too many people only look at the cost of unions and hey 10% for a lesser product is a large percentage. Non union companies can move faster and do not have all of the red tape. I heard on the news, it takes Honda of America less than 1 day to change product lines on similar cars, I think it was from Civic to Accord, but for a unionized GM, it takes months. In addition, GM is talking about cutting another 47K jobs, sounds to me like the unions just threw more of you under the bus to preserve its' own back.

Back to steel, what steel industry, the industry has been decimated by the union and there is little steel industry left. Again, you are pointing fingers instead of looking at facts. Unions had their place, but the union of today and the last 30 - 40 years is not that same union of the early 20th Century. There is a reason the mob has been/is so attached to the union. The union does nothing to help the working man anymore. Sure they make speeches about how they are getting you this or that, what they do not tell you, is that it is likely your job will be outsourced in less than five years, your union dues are going up, because you are making more money, you taxes are also going up, because you are in a higher income bracket, and you are going to make less than minimum wage when you picket. Hey, I guess those are the prices you have to pay for union protection.

Speaking of EU. Do you know anyone from Europe or Canada? I do and they complain about their health care and those that can afford it come here for treatment. Minimum wait times to see a doctor are counted in months and years. I have a customer with a son that has cancer. It took 9 months to see a doctor an additional 4 month to get treatment and now he is terminal, because over the years, they have harvested just about every vital organ he has and he no longer wants the Canadian doctors to take anything else out. Speaking of the unions, you say they do it right? Yet the unemployment statically, is consistently higher there than here. In addition, Europe had to form the EU just to have a currency to compete with the USD.

You can preach all day about the glorious union, but the facts are not on your side and anyone with reasonable intelligence can see that. It is like this new push to abolish the secret ballot. They say it makes it easier to form a union and they are right, because they will know exactly who to terrorize and harass to force union membership. It is only better for the union, not the individual. A few years back, the union called a strike at a local Trane plant and those that could not longer afford to be on strike went back to work. One guy had a classic 60's Stingray and his car was trashed that night at his house. Other people received threatening calls. This seems to be the norm for unions and I fail to see how that is beneficial to worker.

The reason we rank low in health care? Because the WHO thinks everyone is entitled to free health care. Let us face the facts, not everyone deserves health care and we are born to die. Why should my taxes go up to pay for some Alcoholic to get a liver transplant? I do not drink. Why should my taxes go up to pay for a smoker to get Chemo for cancer or make their final days better or purchase their oxygen, because of emphysema. I do not smoke, but I have had one grandmother die from emphysema and one with less than 40% lung capacity let. I do not feel sorry for them. They made that choice, not I. Why should my taxes go up to pay for those who continually have children they cannot afford? I will make a pass here for the children and say one and maybe two kids should be cared for, but at some point, the **** needs to be fixed and I would rather pay for that, than 4 - 5- 6 or more kids for 18 years of life. The list goes on and on. Personal Responsibility is being lost in this country and that is why we are where we are today. Lastly, our planet cannot support the number of people we are making and some people just need to be looked over. It sounds mean and cruel, but that is a fact.

OK this has gotten out of hand.

Also there are children who read this forum as well. Enough with the foul language !

I was sorry to see Alabama made national news with the brawl at a high school basketball game last night. The penalties should be severe and I must point out that it was not republicans that I saw in the brawl. I guess that I am profiling a little bit but if the shoe fits .....That brawl was unexcusable and the only good thing about it was all in attendance had been screened like at the airport so there were no weapons. And most chairs were bolted to the floor. A sad day and we don't need any of that kind of publicity.

> I don't like talking politics here, but....
Laaz, you better have not!...

Just a word. I cannot judge what has been said about USA but I have to say that what 829 said about Europe is a complete non-sense.

Sylvain.

First mistake:
You cannot take Europe like a whole. Very difficult to compare Romania and Germany.
Second mistake:
It is true that European people always shout against their governments about health care system but it is not to destroy it, it is to save and reinforce it!

I don't want to comment so stupid things:
-"Minimum wait times to see a doctor are counted in months and years."
-Europe had to form the EU just to have a currency to compete with the USD."(other countries have currencies to COMPETE with Dollar?!! But who cares about dollar!?).
-"The vast majority of the best doctors in the world are educated and work here in the states." Wouarf! (I am sure you have as good doctors as we have, but as you said, in your country it is for "those that can afford it").

I am myself making a big mistake:
I am loosing my time because there is not any chance that you change your mind.