Roachslayer, I find your last comment......(" Fungus Gnats are HORRIBLE here and guaranteed to be in every container plant")...... to be very interesting.

One of the advantages of CHC is the absence of fungus gnats. This is because the top layer of chips that is exposed to the air dries rather quickly, therefore they are not attractive to gnats.

Unfortunately, the roots of plants are the food source for the larvae stage of fungus gnats. They eat roots. I am not sure about springtails that live in containers, but I suspect that they also feed on roots. - Millet (915-)

roachslayer, you are using a chc and peat mix(4-1). That should be 80% chc chips and 20% fine peat. That sounds ok,however with your problems with soggy media and fungus gnats, it sounds like the proportion of fine peat, or fine chc/coir is much higher. A dense non draining fine peat/sand based mix attracts gnats, but a similar mix based on coarser peat/coarser sand is not so attractive.
Otherwise if the 20% peat is correct, it may be a drainage or low container height problem. I too would look at container temperature factors.

Also you want to feed the plants a lot. Over use of fertilizer can cause root burn/damage and root rot like symptoms. Where N is supplied by Ammonium compounds, Ammonium toxicity is possible, especially under low temp/low light conditions. Symptoms are blackened/browned slimy roots.
Nearly all root rot organisms( except Chalara ? ) can be inhibited by high air% free draining mixes, as the microbes favor the opposite conditions.
I agree that it is lack of oxygen, not over watering that causes problems, in that respect, but still not sure if you can "never" over water a chc mix.
Mushrooms in pine based mixes are probably due to wood rotting fungi in the pine bark, triggered by rain etc. They are less problem in correctly composted pine bark.Your conditions probably favor them, more than cause them ?
I agree with the posts here by jrb and millet, and would also investigate their lines of thinking. I think your problem may be a combination of all these factors.

I have a proper 4-1 ratio, not too much peat. The CHC is medium chunks, same exact stuff Millet uses (same supplier even).

Temperature is not a factor, and there is plenty drainage. Not sure about container height... is too high a problem? I always thought mine were too low.

Feeding could be, but is not likely a problem. Using Jacks 25-5-15, my understanding is its not as risky to get root burn. Then again, the symptoms of blackened slimy roots are exactly my problem - and a contributor to the "sewage" smell I described on my dead plants.

About Bugs:
I will say, Springtails are far more abundant than fungus gants right now. And this is NOT an area where CHC is an advantage. Springtails love moisture, and unlike fungus gnats, they dont mind the top being a bit dry. They are abundant and thriving in my CHC pots, even when I dont water for 3 weeks, its still too moist. They appear to exist by the hundereds, if not thousands, per indoor pot (both CHC and Pine pots). And they exist by the hundereds of millions in the yard. That said, springtails supposedly only eat decaying matter and rarely ever harm plants. Ok then, what is decaying, and why?

BTW, my blueberries are in 40/40/20 CHC/Peat/Perlite (a proven excellent mixture). They are doing super great, and with that much peat it is much more dense. Yet, no root rot.

Like I said early on, I am willing to find something other than CHC to blame. Could it be root burn causing the death and decay, thus leading to "soggy, sewage" like CHC? If so, then even Jacks 25-5-15 can cause root burn, and perhaps I should lay off the fertilizer, thus leaving me to wonder what is too much.

A non-systemic insecticide drench, or short soak, with an insecticide like malathion or pyrethrum should quickly eliminate both the springtails and fungus gnats. - Millet (912-)

Sounds like the mix is structurally ok. Containers may be too low, if too high the mix would be too free draining in the top 1/3
How about pH, can you test that ? Some peats can have pretty low pH, and if pH not adjusted, can have a slight sour swampy/vinegar smell. The low pH is acidic, and can damage roots. Probably unlikely in your case as the 80% chc should balance the average peat, but still might be worth checking.
Blueberries are happier in slightly more acidic soils than Citrus ?
Not sure about the "sewerage" smell ?

Thanks for all the input and ideas everyone. I just checked the roots on a few of my plants, and they all look OK after a good year or so in the CHC. No bad smells. The experiences and discoveries I have been posting about are regarding some plants that did in fact die, and I was not sure the cause, and the CHC was soggy and stinky.

One thing that remains accurate is that CHC really does hold moisture a long time. Indoors in Seattle, I have to go at least 2 weeks between waterings, and even then, the CHC in the lower half of the container is quite damp. This is not always a good thing in Seattle wish risk of mold, mildew, fungus, but still may not be _the_ problem.

I will continue to use CHC for citrus, but I feel I just have to be very careful with it. As mentioned, my blueberries absolutely thrive in it (with a mix heavier in peat) and I will experiment with gardenias in CHC.

Yes, Blueberries like a lower pH than citrus, down as low as 4.0 and in fact no higher than 5.5. Hence, more peat. The 40/40/20 CHC/Peat/Perlite was the winner in a test by Colorado State U. (they also noted an 80% Coir mix, which we know offers a pH citrus is happy with)

The mother of excellent resources on blueberries:
http://growingtaste.com/fruit/blueberries.shtml

From your link, that blueberry mix uses coir and not CHCs. They are not the same. I think you know that already but I just wanted to make sure.

Yes, and good point. I should have mentioned, I am experimenting a bit with CHC, using that info as a base. I also have Coir mixes, and will see how it does.

On topic of this thread... here is a link to CHC instructions, testing and data:
http://www.ladyslipper.com/coco3.htm

I am testing the 4-1 CHC/peat mix (used Azalea Mix, not straight peat) in a fabric container. It's been a few months now and the Algerian Clementine is doing excellent. So far in 100+ dry heat, it is still doing fine.

In this short amount of time, I preliminarily concur with Millet about difficulty over-watering Citrus. Once stabilized in the new mix, this mandarin seemingly isn't affected by short term over-watering -- unlike the normal bagged mix trees I keep as test cases. I watered it *very* heavily (about 200% of container volume twice per day) every day for two weeks and did not notice a decline whatsoever. I would certainly see signs of over-watering after 1 week of this in bagged soil mixes. I went back to normal watering and later did notice some drooping if I extended it to 5 days between waterings.

Similar to what was said, it is extremely moist below the surface but I was trying to take Millet's advice and basically ignore the moisture and was hopeful the aeration within the mix would be sufficient. So far this has been good advice, but I do watch my trees carefully and adjust as needed.

To the statement "CHC never gets soggy" -- that might be true in the 4/1 recommended mix but I recently purchased a mandarin that was planted in straight peat (or COIR) + CHC (rough guess 80/20% CHC). I don't know that I can yet tell aged COIR apart from peat. This was the first time I've seen CHC from a nursery.

The CHC chunks were extremely soggy when removed from the mix, what I consider "degraded" as it lost structural integrity (fell apart) easily when rubbed between my fingers. Re-potting was also more difficult. Roots had grown through the chunks (as they do with bark). But with bark, it is light enough even when wet. CHC is much heavier (due to sponge-like water retention until gravity drains excess) when pulling straight out of the container. I typically use a water bucket to soak/remove soil when bare-rooting, but lost several roots this way due to the clinging chunks. I had to squeeze the chips to extract water, before allowing the root to bare the weight of the saturated chip.The degradation and difficulty re-potting causes me some concern for down-the-road care. But it will be at least 2 years before I test that.

Roach:

Reading your post about "sewerage smell", this is a similar smell to rotten egg, sulfur, or even certain cheeses (I smelled it outside Olive Garden last week!). This typically signifies an anaerobic condition in the soil (over-watering, lack of drainage, etc). An acidic smell and dead root smell is very different and would not be confused with rotten egg, but it is also strong. I've experienced it on older, poor condition trees purchased on clearance from nurseries.

At first read of your post, I thought "yeah, it was over-watered and CHC mix contributed to root rot". But after reading your further replies I am not so sure.

Quote:

They are doing super great, and with that much peat it is much more dense. Yet, no root rot.

I also have lots of blueberries and I think you're aware you cannot compare BB to Citrus. The two are very different beasts. I've never seen any signs of root rot/over-watering in my container BBs even in my heaviest mixes that have less aeration and retain tremendous amounts of water.

I'm very curious also to learn from your experiences. It would be helpful if you had any pictures of the trees during the decline, esp. of the minimal rootball it ended with.

So how many citrus do you have in the 4-1 CHC mix that are doing well now? Were the couple that died the ONLY ones that seriously declined (ie. the problems were isolated to those two trees).

C4F,

In short, yes I do have other plants in 4-1 CHC and they are doing WELL and are NOT exhibiting this "rot" problem I have mentioned on this thread.

My situation:
The plants that died and whose soil smelled "rotten" had died primarily from Scale. I killed the scale after losing 80% of the tree. I kept the remaining 20% of the tree alive just fine for many months actually, and then suddenly, it died rapidly. That is when I pulled it from the soil, found almost NO roots, and a terrible smell. During this time, I was watering the plant in its CHC mix once every week.

I knew I had eliminated the scale and had a stable plant for a while, so my initial assumption was... I overwatered and it rotted. But lets examine this alternative:

My current theory:
With 80% of the tree dead from scale, I had 80% more root than was needed. Therefore, I believe 80% of the roots died as they were not needed (is this a proper assumption??). If that is the case, the fungus gnats and springtails (which I could not kill) went crazy, eating up the dead roots AND the living roots, and killed the plant. The root rot came by THIS, and not necessarily by overwatering - despite that at the same time, I was watering regularly and could easily draw the wrong conclusion.

I am overly sensitive to issues regarding rot, fungus, mildew. I don't know how to tell you non-Seattle folks how insanely COMMON it is to have mildew, mold, fungus on anything and everything with any hint of pronlonged moisture. But given that the other plants are in fact doing OK (I recently repotted a few, no rotten smell), I think the CHC is working "ok" even in seattle.

But the lesson learned: if ANYTHING should go wrong with the plant, beware that in Seattle you can experience rot very quickly.

Hello, roachslayer, fellow Seattleite.

How is your citrus doing now? Having read this thread I can't say I've ever seen fungus gnats here. I'm concerned about the temps in Seattle, will spring ever be warm enough for my trees to move outside? Currently I have two trees under a heat mat and have it about 70F inside. But, I wonder if I'll be growing this stuff inside for 10 months of the year the way Seattle weather has been (no sign of spring).

I currently have 2 LED grow lights over my setup and have 1 more LED UFO light on order - I'll post some pics later for the LED haters can see. I have some good spring growth flushes on 3 trees now (only 56watts of LED lights).

Curious to know what Roachslayer's light setup in Seattle is.

Hey there Stoddo! Sorry for the delay in reply. I've been super busy gearing up for spring, which apparently finally is now arriving.

Report:
Since the episode written in this thread, I have not killed a single Citrus tree. All remaining survived, and even grew new development through the winter.

Over the winter, I used a grow light (four T5 bulbs with a good reflector) in the garage with temps above 55 deg. This is because I wanted the plants to continue to be able to take up nutrients (some of them are recovering from losing half their limbs due to Scale). And as you know, there really has not been much sunlight here this winter!

Watering/feeding:
I am careful to water only once a week. Millet says you cannot overwater in CHC, but in Seattle, it just stays too wet to justify any more watering, even indoors. I always feed with Jacks at each watering because I believe some of my trees suffered when I used water only for a few months. I plan to experiment with organic fertilizer at least on some of my trees this year. (i want to kick the chemical habbit on food plants if I can)

My plan this season:

-Outside for the summer when night temps are above 55 (did this last year, they did GREAT)
-Inside new greenhouse in fall/winter (growlight in garage is ok alternative)
-Kill scale with Malathion IMMEDIATELY upon detection (they will kill your tree FAST, dont hesitate to ANNIHILATE)
-Kill Spider Mites by spraying with neem oil or light hort oil (HARD to SEE, be very careful to find and annihilate)
-Use tanglefoot at rim of container or trunk of tree (do NOT want ants to bring scale and other crap up into the trees)
-Release Ladybugs in waves (new idea this year, maybe I wont have to spray for spider mites and scale?)
-Use beneficial nematodes to kill springtail and fungus gnat larvae (new idea, we'll see how this goes)

About Pests:
Neem and light hort oil did NOT kill scale, only mites. I encountered 2 types of scale in this area so far: brown, and cottony cushion. Beware, Brown scale is MUCH harder to detect. And Spider mites sometimes leave visible web, otherwise seen only by white speckles from damaged leaves. Cant really see the mites themselves. Check plants often, and carefully. Lastly, always assume you WILL encounter these and be ready, rather than assume you wont.

These are what all I encountered over the past year plus in the Seattle area. I was not armed and ready last time, but this time I am locked and loaded to the hilt with proper pest control and watering+fert+soil strategies. I expect no casualties this year, no tree left behind.

References/Supplies:
(everything here but the last item can be found at local nurseries or even hardware stores, and online)

-Tanglefoot Pest Barrier (block ants, local nursery supply)
-Bonide Malathion (kill scale, hardware store)
-Neem Oil (kill mites, Fred Meyer, or anywhere)
-Light/Ultra-Fine hort oil (alternative to neem oil, many brands, just look for active ingredient Paraffinic Oil 98%, and dilute to what it suggests for citrus)
-Jack's 25-5-15 (fertilizer for container grown citrus. hard to find supplier. can only get in HUGE-bigger-than-costco sized quantities that you dont need. Let me know if you want some of mine )

Greeting Roachslayer,

sorry you've had such a hard time with pests. I'm thinking of spraying my trees with neem oil the day they go outside - I agree sometimes once you notice pests lots of damage has been done, maybe a monthly spraying is a good idea. I believe I had spider mites last year and did see aphids munching away.

My bigger concern with Seattle is weather - I've read about this giant yellow fireball in the sky but not sure what it looks like.

My trees will go outside once it warms up but honestly I'd be surprised if this is less than 3 months from now.

So, my future concerns as addressed in the other threads is how to heat soil/root zone and lighting indoors. I now bought an UFO LED light and 2 panel LED lights - I'll have to update that thread but so far am happy with the growth the LED lights can put on. I just think being Seattle, I need to plan for indoor growth 9 months of the year.

Thanks for the offer of Jack's but I have a good quantity of Espoma's Citi-tone and Grow Tone. I don't fertilize but approx. every 2 months. One of my Meyer Lemon's is loosing a lot of leaves after transplant into CHC/Peat but other is doing fine and lime tree is going nuts with new growth.