Citrus Growers Forum

TimShultz · Posted: Sat 03 Apr, 2010 12:06 am

Is there any reason one would still use a moisture meter/gauge when planting trees in a CHC medium? Thanks, Tim. Smile

Millet · Posted: Sat 03 Apr, 2010 1:53 am

I have never used a moisture meter. I always determine when the container needs watering by lifting the container, to feel how heavy, or how light it is. - Millet (1,018-)

C4F · Posted: Sat 03 Apr, 2010 1:52 pm

That's a good question. Does a typical gauge still work?

Supposedly they work by testing the electrical conductivity? If the medium has significant macro pores between the CHC, I doubt it will be reliable. If it's more of a 4:2 mix chc/peat, maybe? Supposedly fertilizer levels also affect it.

Anyone?

I've used the wooden dowel method which worked very well to test moisture -- however, frequently felt like I was tearing roots so I used it only as long as I had to until I learned how much the trees needed through experience.

bigmario · Posted: Sun 11 Jul, 2010 3:02 pm

How do you lift these to see if they need water??
Does anyone have any citrus that is growing in a soiless mix, that is bark based that has any siize? If so I would love to see pics and tips on how to do it. I can only dream of having a tree get to any size in a pot.

Millet · Posted: Sun 11 Jul, 2010 10:30 pm

I wonder if the picture on the left has been photo shopped. A tree that size, in that container, would be constantly blown over on windy days. When a citrus tree's root system, or any tree for that matter, completely fills a container, the tree's growth becomes narrow and straight up much like tooth paste out of the tube. - Millet (918-)

bigmario · Posted: Sun 11 Jul, 2010 10:49 pm

Hello Millet.
I am in the photo and my wife took them on a trip to Italy in 2005. I asure you they are not photo shopped because we took them and we wouldn't know how to photo shop a photo. Those two trees were at a villa in Tuscany we toured and I am sure there is a crew that tends to them. I am gonna try and post a pic of my uncle's trees which are at an apartment half under an awning and have been in there pots a long time and he says all he does is scrape some of the top few inches of soil out along with some small roots and ads some more soil every year or two. I am so jelous of the trees I see in Italy. I can't seem to get a tree to grow.
The small lemon is one he did from the big growing tree with a bag over a cut branch some how. He explained it to me but I did not understand it all. The other is a photo of his veggie garden he has. I just thought you might enjoy it.

Millet · Posted: Mon 12 Jul, 2010 1:00 am

Mario, thanks for the affirmation. In one of the pictures, he has a circle of sticks around the rim of the container. This must be to hold that tree in an upward stance. Looking at his garden, I can tell that he sure must like beans. Thanks for the pictures, very interesting. Take care. - Millet (918-)

bigmario · Posted: Mon 12 Jul, 2010 2:21 am

Millet,
The circles and stakes are something many Italians do to their trees. It is almost like an espolier (however you spell it). It is hollow almost in center with all the growth and fruit on out side to let sun in the middle. His trees are deffinately more than 2 years old. I wish I could fly him here to help me but he won't come to the U.S. My dad has a friend here in calif. that has many potted citrus and I want him to take me to see them to see their health and medium they are growing in. The villas in Italy have what they call lemonias which are big rooms they move the trees into if it gets cold. Not quite a greenhouse. Do not go to Tuscany or you will surely get what I have, "citrus envy"

citrange · Posted: Mon 12 Jul, 2010 4:55 pm

I'm fairly certain the Italian potted citrus photos were taken at Villa Grabau in Tuscany. ! visited there a few years back and desribed this at
http://www.homecitrusgrowers.co.uk/citrusplaces/grabau.html

These pots are of-course not filled with CHC's, but with local soil (which you in USA seem to call 'dirt') and traditional organic fertilisers/manures.
I spoke to some of the gardeners in these gardens about watering. They water very carefully and only when required. They use a wooden stick to tap the sides of the terracotta pots and, after many years experience, they can tell from the sound whether the pot needs watering!
The pots are now moved into their winter home with the aid of a fork-lift truck but originally it took six men to manoevre each pot onto a horse drawn platform.

Mike aka Citrange

bigmario · Posted: Tue 13 Jul, 2010 1:35 am

you got it Citrange. That is where we were. My family lives a short bike ride or walk from there. How can I do it like them here in calif. ? How do they tend to the roots in those huge pots with huge trees? What do you use for "dirt"? No photo shop in my photos.

roachslayer · Posted: Tue 13 Jul, 2010 6:20 pm

This is a good post for MILLET to see...

My experience with CHC + Peat mix (4-1) has been... inconclusive. I have my doubts on it's performance. I like the fact it is very forgiving and that your plants will probably never go dry... but...

I read in another forum (ye old ubc botanical garden forum) that you cannot over water when in CHC. While this may be true from an oxygen standpoint (you cant drown the plant), I do NOT believe it is true from a root rot standpoint.

I killed one of my plants possibly by over watering in CHC. It was not from oxy starving. It was from root rot. CHC for me is constantly soggy. I have to go 2 or 3 weeks before it even begins to dry out (I am in Seattle, plants indoors). However, I wanted to FEED the plants (25-5-15) more often than once every 3+ weeks, so I would water every week or so anyway. This was BAD. So now I dont water as much, and therefore dont feed as much.

What am I doing wrong? How can I prevent rot whilst still feed a lot? What is a better media?

Millet, I still want to believe in CHC, I have lots on hand! But I am not sure its working out. I will admit there could have been some other factor involved in my pants death, so I will not blame CHC 100% just yet. There is hope!

jrb · Posted: Tue 13 Jul, 2010 11:26 pm

roachslayer wrote:

I killed one of my plants possibly by over watering in CHC. It was not from oxy starving. It was from root rot. CHC for me is constantly soggy. I have to go 2 or 3 weeks before it even begins to dry out (I am in Seattle, plants indoors). However, I wanted to FEED the plants (25-5-15) more often than once every 3+ weeks, so I would water every week or so anyway. This was BAD. So now I dont water as much, and therefore dont feed as much.

What variety of citrus was it that died? Did you check the roots to verify that it was root rot? The tree is obviously not taking up water for whatever reason. If it is not taking up water then it is not taking up nutrients either. There is no point in watering the plant just to feed it because the nutrients are not going to enter the plant, the plant isn't going to grow, and so the plant doesn't need the nutrients.

The fact that you are in Seattle may be key. 55F is often listed as the temperature where citrus roots no longer function. However, I have noticed differences in root activity between the different citrus varieties that I have. Lemons and especially limes still seem to perform reasonably well with root temperatures between 60F and 70F. Oranges struggle a little bit with those root temperatures and my satsuma won't produce new growth at all until I get the roots above 70F and preferably closer to 80F. I have no experience with kumquats but I suspect the difference between varieties may be correlated to the cold hardiness of the variety since the least hardy varieties seem to be able to take up some water at lower temperatures while the most hardy varieties cannot. That would lead me to suspect that a kumquat may act similar to a satsuma. This may be a function of the rootstock alone but is more likely a combination of rootstock and scion properties. I live in an area where the average daily outdoor temperature never exceeds 70F at any point during the year and I have found that I have to heat the container my satsuma is in to get the tree to grow.

Use a thermometer to measure the soil temperature several inches below the surface. If the sun is not shining on the container your tree is in, you will find that the soil temperature is zero to ten degrees (Fahrenheit) less than the air temperature due to water evaporation from the container. The temperature difference is dependent on how wet the soil is and the air humidity level.

My satsuma didn't show any obvious problems, it just didn't produce any new growth and it took up very little water from the container - much less than any of the other citrus trees I have. Gradually, over a couple of years, it dropped old leaves until there were few left and it never grew a single new leaf. When the last leaf dropped from a particular branch that branch would die. When I started heating the container and raised the root zone temperature to about 75F, the tree immediately produced a huge growth flush and started taking up water at a similar rate to my other trees. Does this sound similar to the problem you have? If so, let the sun shine on the container or heat the root zone using a heating mat or heating cable or some other method.

_________________
Jim

Millet · Posted: Tue 13 Jul, 2010 11:52 pm

Roachslayer wrote: " I do NOT believe it is true from a root rot standpoint"

Roachslayer it is true. If you look on this forum, you will find a thread concerning a test that I preformed some time back. I watered several of my CHC containerized trees every single day without fail for a month straight. Toward the end of the experiment I watered several of them two and 3 times a day. Not one single tree had the slightest difficulty. Again is not the amount of water that causes the problem, it is the lack of oxygen that always does the damage.

How old is your CHC medium (although I don't think that is a problem)? Even after reading what you wrote above, I still think the problem is that you are not watering enough. I would soak the tree in a large bucket of warm water for 15 to 30 minutes, and water frequently.

Lastly, concerning your comment above........"CHC for me is constantly soggy"....... I would make the following statement. I have over 100 citrus trees growing in CHC for the last 5 or more years (frankly I can't remember how long), and the words "soggy & CHC" just do not go together. In all the years, I have never ever seen a soggy CHC medium in any of my 100 trees. Anyway the very best to you and your tree. Best regards, - Millet (916-)

bigmario · Posted: Wed 14 Jul, 2010 1:55 am

Millet,
What is the largest tree and container you have and how long has it been in the pot and do you have a photo.

roachslayer · Posted: Wed 14 Jul, 2010 5:49 am

Millet wrote:

What variety of citrus was it that died?

Meiwa Kumquat. Also a Limequat.

Millet wrote:

Did you check the roots to verify that it was root rot?

Yes indeed. In fact, it was so bad, there were almost no roots to speak of. And worse, the medium smelled like sewage, rotten, nasty, soggy. It literally stunk, was disgusting. And this was with once per week watering, indoors (so, lower humidity and no rain). This CHC was 6 months old, hardly compacted.

Millet wrote:

The fact that you are in Seattle may be key

Seattle is seldom above 55 in the daytime, and rarely above 55 at night except mid summer. Therefore, my plants spend their time indoors with a soil temp of 60-70 deg. That said, I rarely see new growth on any of my citrus (including a supposedly easy Trovita Orange). Sad

So I am still learning how to optimize and play the game.

Millet wrote:

My satsuma didn't show any obvious problems, it just didn't produce any new growth...it dropped old leaves until there were few left and it never grew a single new leaf. When the last leaf dropped from a particular branch that branch would die. When I started heating the container and raised the root zone temperature to about 75F, the tree immediately produced a huge growth flush and started taking up water at a similar rate to my other trees. Does this sound similar to the problem you have?

Yes actually, it definitely does, minus that last revival part. Maybe I need to experiment with higher than 70 F soil temp?

Millet wrote:

I still think the problem is that you are not watering enough... I have over 100 citrus trees growing in CHC for the last 5 or more years... the words "soggy & CHC" just do not go together.

Millet, I admire your experience, so much so that I can honestly say, your posts about CHC have been my guide - even using your same supplier, rinsing with epsom, fertilizing with Jacks, etc.

I wonder if my experience is impacted by my climate? Seattle is known for funky things, like easy fungus, mold, mildew, etc. I can say with certainty, I found that "soggy & CHC" went together in a nasty way here (as noted above when I examined the roots). Just the other day, I found mushrooms shooting right out of one of my indoor containers (Trovita Orange). Never in my life have I seen full on fungus growth magically appear in any indoor container, however, that one happened to be in Pine, not CHC.

Fungus Gnats are HORRIBLE here, and guaranteed to be in every container plant I have except my cactus (not enough water). These and springtails are in abundance and are impossible to kill. I repeat, they cannot be killed, simply cannot. Even if you think they are dead, they will be back real soon. My various citrus have co-existed with them for over a year, but I do wonder if they contributed to the death of the kumquats.

My biggest peeve with CHC is this: These gnats absolutely love the constantly wet CHC. I have considered doing a hybrid approach of CHC up to a point, then lay down weed mat material, and then 2 inches of sand. So, the citrus would sit with 2 inches of pure sand at the top to deter the gant punks, the CHC the rest of the way down, AND the container would lined with flypaper or tanglefoot on the rim to kill adults fruit flies. Anyway... a little off topic, but suffice it to say, I am not sure whether to blame CHC or something else for my woes just yet.