Several months back we were part of a project in Dauben's area with their waste water department, advising them how to get the Red Dye out of the water at the waste water plant. The red dye is used to color Sun Flowers in the San Diego area. - Millet

The problem was with with either Encinitas or Carlsbad. Anyway, during Sun Flower harvest the flower growers put so much of a dye named Hot Pink 2880 down the drain, the waste water plant could not remove it. I was also in Saint Diego with the American Ivy Society. Stayed in a hotel in Old Town. - Millet (Drill ANWR)

I like organic fertilizers when I'm planting things for the ground. For instance if I'm planting flowers, vegetables or perennials I like to have mycorrhiza in the soil-less mix and then use organic fertilizers to help the fungus active so when I plant in the ground it can spread, or so is my theory so far. I think if I inoculate the soil before or at planting this would show the full benefit. Otherwise i ave come to learn that the organic fertilizers do the same if I have it in container especially if it is not a food crop so I'm still on the fence but haven't had time to play around too much. In the ground I think that, dependent on your soil, blood and bone meal, so manure tea with alfalfa and kelp seems to do the trick although the number of applications go up with manure tea, but I would like to feed the soil; However I don't think you get the maximum yields all the time dependent on your methods but I think in the long run keeping the soil full of beneficials there and in big numbers do more than the chemicals. Just my 2 cents.

Dauben, for the salts question, all the MgSo4, KCl, KNo3 etc etc chemical compounds in a synthetic fertilizer behave as salts, in that say when mixing up a liquid feed, we can measure the Ec of the final mix. Adding extra/too much liquid stock or soluble powder will bang up the Ec of the fed liquid, which will be felt by the plant as "saline water". Even Urea, technically a non salt will 'contribute' to the measured Ec of a liquid feed, and must be accounted for when mixing. Adding dry or granular ferts to containers( the tank) is a bit similar, but complicated by time and irrigation, ie the concentration of our soloution fluctuates as fert is released from the granules and irriigation water is added/ drained.
Container production nurseries that liquid feed, are reccomended to use an Ec Alarm on their fertigation equipment, in case of incorrect mixing, or agitation failure etc.

One of the big complaints about commercial fertilizer is that it causes soil compaction. It is true--at least in the final result. The fertilizer itself does not cause the compaction--it feeds bacteria and fungus the nutrients they need to degrade any organic matter in the soil--leaving a soil that will compact. -- The solution is to add organic matter.

With container citrus, that is not really an issue if you use materials that do not degrade readily--like CHC or pine bark chunks. The issue is providing enough nutrients to satisfy the needs of the tree. If you add organic fertilizer, it has to break down to be available to the tree (into the same compounds found in commercial fertilizer)--before it is washed out. You can't really use organic solids like cottonseed meal as that will turn to muck that will retain water and cause root rot.

I can understand using organic farming methods for inground crops--especially when good materials are readily available and cheap, but paying more for "organic" fertilizer in containers is basically only good for the organic fertilizer manufacturers.

Reading the labels on the organic fertilizers that have been posted on this forum, I see that much of the nitrogen content is listed as non soluble. Therefore the manufacture calls the non soluble portion "slow release". After reading what the non soluble ingredients are , I can tell that they would be so EXTREMELY slow to release any nutrition as to be of no practical use to a containerized citrus tree. Certainly not be a good nutrition program unless some other type of soluble nitrogen is also given to the tree. - Millet (924-)

Kristmama, Organic citrus cultivation is well worth the extra effort and slight extra expense. As a family man, I completely understand your desire for safe organic foods. Unfortunately for the naysayers, organic citrus is finally catching on.

Most of the negatives brought up by our pro-chemical friends is older, less relevant arguments, like adding manure to your container!?!? This is not a practice of modern organic container citrus for many reasons. To address the notion that chemically fed trees produce more fruit I say, QUALITY over quantity. And believe me after 10+ years of organic container citrus cultivation , organic citrus done right is superior in all ways, not to mention better for the environment due to chemical fertilizer runoff and a host of other things.

Here is a simple baseline guide for modern container organic citrus growing, experiment and test your own ideas as well.

Required tools: Multimeter for monitoring and adjusting PPM and PH

1 *important* start with clean or filtered water at around 70-75 degrees. If you have a well get it tested and find out what minerals your starting with, generally if its under 60ppm and factoring in what the water test reveals it should be ok. If you have city water, call your municipal water supply and they will be able to provide you whats in the water and at what levels. A 1, 5 or 10 micron pre filter + Carbon post filter tends to work the best for reducing contaminates and are the most economical, other options are available for more dramatic reduction needs. Knowing whats in your water may provide other benefits as well, like health.

2. Fill your bucket. (I use a 10 to 20 gallon). I like to add a little hydrogen peroxide to the bucket (small amount, a tablespoon or so per 5 gallons - or follow label instructions if you manage to find the better plant specific type - generally higher concentration, but be careful its literally rocket fuel at super high concentrations and will burn you) this adds a higher oxygen concentration to the water and has antibacterial proprieties. Now use a jet type sprayer to fill the bucket, you'll see many little bubbles which are oxygenating the water, citrus roots love oxygen. Normally, you would add about a teaspoon to a tablespoon per 5gallons of Epsom salts once a month to once every other month depending on watering frequency. Get the Epsom salts to increase the ppm by about 100-150ppm, use the same ppm or slightly elevated but more frequently when treating a deficiency.

3. Use a high quality liquid organic fertilizer(must have trace minerals) with a high nitrogen(N), medium to low phosphorus(P), and high to medium potassium (K) level. something in the neighborhood of 8.2.5 is pretty close to ideal for containers. Slowly bring the ppm level to about 300-500. I have seen quite a bit of recommendation around here on what the correct NPK ratio, to be honest there is no one size fits all ratio, and the ones saying there is a one size fits all I am sorry to be the one to tell you, you are simply wrong. Quick explanation is: you must factor in tree type, size, climate, soil, nutrient uptake, container, in ground, organic/synthetic, and many other factors. I believe for organic container citrus this(8.2.5) is the best ratio for me and you may find a different ratio that works better for you. For the added benefit of trace minerals and natural growth hormones add about 25-50ppm of liquid organic kelp - but keep the ppm always to 500 or below for medium to large trees and below 300 for smaller trees. I also spray with around 10-20 drops(20-40ppm) per spray bottle of kelp once a week or so - particularly when new flushes are occurring, new leaves absorb the beneficial hormones more efficiently then older leaves, and don't forget the under side of the leaves. For larger trees, heavy feeders or before new flushes, In addition to the water, feel free to scratch in 1/4- 1/2 strength organic citrus granules to the soil surface, just be careful not to over do it.

4. After the water is at the right PPM, test the PH with your multimeter. its probably going to be on the lower end or may even be perfect(6.0-6.5) adjust the water either up or down SLOWLY because if its goes either too high or too low there is no going back, you must start completely over. Your target is consistency with PH. After the water is adjusted to the correct PH let it sit for about 5-10 min, come back and verify the PH level held, if it did you're ready to water, if not adjust again and wait another 5-10min, repeat until stable PH is achieved. When watering let a good amount of water come out of the bottom of the container, this flushes salt buildup out of the container among other things.Typically only water when soil top 2 inches is dry, use a moisture meter if unsure.

Ryan, you seem to disagree with the assertion that 5-1-3 is indeed the absorption ratio of nutritional elements by a citrus tree's root system. Obviously, it should go without mention, that any ratio will need an adjustment when the mineral content in a tree's leaves are unsatisfactory. However, the ratio 5-1-3 is indeed the accepted ratio. If you think that 5-1-3 is incorrect, you should in good charity, also inform Dr. Giovanni Dugo of the University of Messina, Italy, Dr. Angelo Di Giacomo of the Experiment Labs for the Essences and Derivatives of Citrus, the authors of the text book "The Genus Citrus", L.W. Timmer and Larry W. Duncan of the University of Florida, plus the many other experts, all of whom support the 5-1-3 ratio. I believe that they would appreciate knowing that they are also in error. The best to you and your trees. - Millet (922-)

Quote"Most of the negatives brought up by our pro-chemical friends is older, less relevant arguments, like adding manure to your container!?!? This is not a practice of modern organic container citrus for many reasons. To address the notion that chemically fed trees produce more fruit I say, QUALITY over quantity. And believe me after 10+ years of organic container citrus cultivation , organic citrus done right is superior in all ways, not to mention better for the environment due to chemical fertilizer runoff and a host of other things. "

Older less relevant? The plants take up the same chemical form of N whether it comes from manure or a bag of commercial fertilizer. Ammonia is ammonia, nitrate is nitrate--that is what the plant has to have--it doesn't matter if you are adding manure, or fish emulsion--it has to be turned into ammonia or nitrate to be taken up by the plant. If you add soluble organic forms like proteins they must stay in the container long enough to be converted to ammonia or nitrate or be washed out with the next watering. If you add manure or solid forms of organic N, they still have to be degraded to become available.

BTW--Hydrogen peroxide is a "chemical" a "synthetic chemical" a "man-made synthetic chemical" --made in those evil chemical plants--don't get me wrong--I'm not saying it is a bad idea, since, as you say, I am pro-chemical. Actually, I am pro "not wasting money".

Millet - I do not disagree with the 5.1.3, but it relates to commercial grove fertilization rates - where the major studies have taken place. The organic container fertilization rate obviously would be different. I am surprised someone with as much experience as you would follow such things.

Here is an example of what I mean: Espoma - Only one of the most respected natural and organic fertilizer companies in the US makes a fantastic product called Citrus tone(5.2.6) for organic citrus. And believe you me, they have done a fair share of research.

Skeet - Hydrogen peroxide is naturally produced in organisms as a by-product of oxidative metabolism. Nearly all living things (specifically, all obligate and facultative aerobes) possess enzymes known as peroxidases, which harmlessly and catalytically decompose low concentrations of hydrogen peroxide to water and oxygen.

I wish you would quit with the cost argument, its another outdated criticism. The above mentioned product Espoma citrus tone is 19.99 for 20 lbs the last time I checked. If this is to costly you may need to look for another hobby.


I do not intend to change the opinions or practices of either of you but, I do take offense to the exerting of opinions as fact to newer members seeking information. I see it as a requirement for a good forum to represent other opinions adequately, Not just brush other opinions under the table because you simply disagree.

RyanL, It occurs to me that it may not be your message, but your delivery that is what is causing the angst.

From what I have gleaned from Skeeter's knowledge and experience in the scientific field, I am sure he is aware that hydrogen peroxide is a byproduct of living organisms. I am sure that his point may have been that the contents of the bottle that you purchase is not from those organisms, but from a chemical plant. Much like the bottles of fertilizer that you hold in such disdain. Further, that those bottles of fertilizer, similarly, are a means of obtaining the components necessary for the trees, skipping the organisms' contribution necessary in organic fertilizers. I think you may not have considered these parallels when promoting your methods.

I enjoy hearing your methods, do not get me wrong, but, once again, it may be your delivery. Skeeter and Millet have rarely (if ever) dismissed someones methods outright, but have asserted that the methods carry some risk, and detail those risks.

Barbara

Barbara is right--I am well aware that hydrogen peroxide can be produced naturally, but what you buy in a bottle is "synthetic" "man made" it is a "chemical"--all those deragatory but meaningless terms used to hype organic fertilizers. Hydrogen peroxide is natural just like ammonia and nitrate--that is my point. There is nothing toxic in commercial fertilizer--it is not the same as a pesticide. There are some disadvantages to using commercial fertilizer in a soil based system as I mentioned, but they can be addressed.

There is some justification to the purchase of organic fruits and veggies in the freedom from pesticides, but most of the pesticides in use today are not the hazard they used to be--most are not persistient and some may even be safer than some "natural organic" pesticides--but most people do not know as much about them as I do. Even then, I tend to avoid all toxic pesticides on my plants--natural or synthetic--to protect the natural predators. I try to use pesticides that kill by suffocation or kill only target species (like dipel).

Edit: As for quality of the fruit--that is a very nebulous term--it depends on the factors one wishes to consider as applying to quality--many of which are subjective--like taste. The suggestion that organic fertilizer creates a fruit of higher quality is a matter of opinion--there are no measurable facts to support that. It is my opinion that there is nothing in or not in organic fertilizer that makes it worth any more than commercial fertilizer when used on container citrus.

There are benefits to using organic matter --whether or not you use commercial fertilizer --in a soil based system, but those benefits apply more to the soil than to citrus specifically. Citrus inground do fine without organic matter as long as the soil has good drainage and sufficient minerals.

RyanL wrote: "The organic container fertilization rate obviously would be different.

Ryan, no it is not obvious. I doubt there is much difference, if any, between the nutrient uptake of container or in-ground trees. If you think so, then we will agree to disagree.

You can grow your tree with any method you wish. I doubt that there is a single member of this forum who cares much how you grow your tree, or with what type of ingredients you use. It is your tree, do as you please. You are very welcome to express your opinions on this forum, but when you do, please refrain from using such a caustic manner. Honey catches more insects, then vinegar. Take care. - Millet (921-)