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Perlite(Did anyone try it?)
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laidbackdood
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Posted: Mon 29 Dec, 2008 10:29 am

Hi Everyone,just wanted to see if anyone tried the perlite test,like i mentioned on a previous thread.My two trees in 80% perlite/tub mix are going well.Havent tried pure perlite.Cheers
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StarLoc
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Posted: Mon 29 Dec, 2008 3:26 pm

Ive been using it on some trees, at different mixes to compost,from 30% perlite to 80% perlite, i have had no problems they all grow fine, it does seem to stay wet longer, but because the air can get through it seems not to rot the roots,

i have some mixed with chc, and it stops the chc needing watering so much but still as free draining, but i dont need to water the chc everyday with the perlite mixed in.

Pure perlite I find is the best thing to root cuttings in, they root quicker and seem to form larger root systems quicker.

Also i took a eureka lemon out of its 5L pot, packed it into perlte in a 30L plastic bag pot, the rootball was still rootbound and packed in clay/sones mix that comes from spain ,i filled around with perlite, after a few weeks i have many roots growng well in the pure surrounding perlite, almost upto the edge of the 30L bag , this was abot 2 months ago now and the plant is growing quickly and seems well.
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aesir22
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Posted: Wed 31 Dec, 2008 8:03 am

I am going to same Tesco's premium lightweight kitty litter for my trees, with 30%citrus soil the rest kitty litter. Works wonders for my bonsai now! Doesn't break down, easy to tell when dry, gets air to the roots and is cheap! Is the UK equivalent of Turface, and my citrus will be potted in it this coming spring.

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KW4
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Posted: Wed 31 Dec, 2008 3:23 pm

So does anyone have any thoughts on the difference between the kitty litter/Diatomaceous Earth vs perlite as media?
I was able to find the DE product as an oil absorber sold at NAPA autoparts here. 25 pounds for a little over 6 dollars.
Perlite would certainly be lighter- good for carrying but bad in any wind.
I am a overwaterer so I welcome something that prevents me from drowning roots.
Also, does anyone think time released fertilizers (osmocote, dynamite, etc) would work in fast draining media such as this? I would imagine one would stick with watersoluble immediate release fertilizer and increase the schedule.
How about trace elements? Would STEM hold or flush right out?

Kyle
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A.T. Hagan
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Posted: Thu 01 Jan, 2009 12:39 am

With the caveat that I haven't tried it yet I think a combination of Turface or the fired DE equivalent and perlite would be interesting. Maybe a coarser perlite than what I can easily find around here though. I suspect in Florida summer conditions that I'd still have to use some added organics to increase water retention as every day watering is not something I want to have to do. Twice a week is more my speed.

.....Alan.
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Millet
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Posted: Thu 01 Jan, 2009 1:05 am

The main problem with perlite is that it is messy, and very lite, so containers tip over in the wind very easily. I have a couple trees in 50 percent CHC and 50 percent 1/2-inch perlite. Being the larger size perlite it is not as messy as the small stuff that is normally found at retail. I believe a good medium for citrus should have some organic material that the trace elements such as STEM can adhere to. It is the organic material in the medium that trace elements adhere to via opposite electric charges. Otherwise I think they would just wash out along with the nitrogen, magnesium and potassium. - Millet
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laidbackdood
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Posted: Sat 17 Jan, 2009 12:52 am

To prevent perlite washing out i use onion bag mesh at the bottom of the pot.
To prevent the tree blowing over i put my 8 inch container inside a 12 inch container.My trees that are 70 to 80 % perlite and 20 to 30 %pot and tub mix(which is a lot of medium bark) seems to work best and stays evenly moist over a long period.Its 25c here now and i water once a week.I have slow release on top but i feed with soluble fert once a week now there is growth.
Against recommendations,my fert is high in nitrogen from urea but the trees seem to love it.I also feed liquid blood and bone occassionally and they like that too.The two in perlite are both in plastic pots.I have a few in terracotta and they are doing reasonably well too
I read before,that the perlite tends to hold onto the soluble fert,therefore the plant can use it when it wants.So,i would say soluble ferts are good for this mix.I will repot these trees in spring and will try to take a picture of the root system and load them here.It has suprised me how quickly this mix drains and it doesnt dry out too quick.Seems to stay evenly moist.Suits me.Cheers
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rudell



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Location: New-Brunswick CANADA

Posted: Wed 21 Jan, 2009 2:38 pm

aesir22 wrote:
I am going to same Tesco's premium lightweight kitty litter for my trees, with 30%citrus soil the rest kitty litter. .


now this is interesting...we have no citrus soil in canada anywhere soooo lets say when transplating my citrus to a new pot I would use 70% washed kitty litter (will any brand do?) 30 % cactus mix ....would this work ??? I thought plants needed black earth to feed??

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Westwood
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Posted: Mon 16 Feb, 2009 5:05 am

[quote="rudell"]
aesir22 wrote:
I am going to same Tesco's premium lightweight kitty litter for my trees, with 30%citrus soil the rest kitty litter. .


now this is interesting...we have no citrus soil in canada anywhere soooo lets say when transplating my citrus to a new pot I would use 70% washed kitty litter (will any brand do?) 30 % cactus mix ....would this work ??? I thought plants needed black earth to feed??



Try making a compost. ity has saved me many times do you drink coffee ? Use the grounds , banana peels ,all fruits and veggies lettus and my fav Water mellon rhines . this will make up a good dirt for you. i do not know the Laws in canada but you can use a 55g Black garbage can. Put in coffee grounds and some wet paper towels to start then add fruits as you eat them get can half full and Presto with in 4 months you will have dirt.
By the way You can mix this up by tapping the top on and laying the can on its side and Rolling it . great exercise for kids and fun too.
Tammy

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A.T. Hagan
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Posted: Mon 16 Feb, 2009 12:29 pm

Westwood wrote:
aesir22 wrote:
I am going to same Tesco's premium lightweight kitty litter for my trees, with 30%citrus soil the rest kitty litter. .


now this is interesting...we have no citrus soil in canada anywhere soooo lets say when transplating my citrus to a new pot I would use 70% washed kitty litter (will any brand do?) 30 % cactus mix ....would this work ??? I thought plants needed black earth to feed??
Check out this thread for the link that will give you particulars about the fired DE products.

link

.....Alan.
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Brancato
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Posted: Sun 22 Mar, 2009 4:07 pm

So I will be getting my first few citrus plants pretty soon and am trying to do some research on growth mediums. If anyone is intersted I found a good forum on Gardenweb reguarding growth mediums (I'm sure many of you have already read it, but if not check it out). I'm currently considering some type of combo of perlite, turface and organics, but I still know very little about growth mediums (I do know airation is key). I live in IL (outside of Chicago) and I have a feeling it is going to be kind of difficult to find CHC but I am going today to check out a few nurserys/garden centers to see whats available.

Consider this if you will:

Soil fills only a few needs in container culture. Among them are: Anchorage - A place for roots to extend, securing the plant and preventing it from toppling. Nutrient Retention - It must retain enough nutrients in available form to sustain plant systems. Gas Exchange - It must be sufficiently porous to allow air to move through the root system and by-product gasses to escape. Water - It must retain water enough in liquid and/or vapor form to sustain plants between waterings. Most plants can be grown without soil as long as we can provide air, nutrients, and water, (witness hydroponics). Here, I will concentrate primarily on the movement of water in soil(s).

There are two forces that cause water to move through soil - one is gravity, the other capillary action. Gravity needs little explanation, but for this writing I would like to note: Gravitational flow potential (GFP) is greater for water at the top of the container than it is for water at the bottom. I'll return to that later. Capillarity is a function of the natural forces of adhesion and cohesion. Adhesion is water's tendency to stick to solid objects like soil particles and the sides of the pot. Cohesion is the tendency for water to stick to itself. Cohesion is why we often find water in droplet form - because cohesion is at times stronger than adhesion; in other words, water’s bond to itself can be stronger than the bond to the object it might be in contact with; in this condition it forms a drop. Capillary action is in evidence when we dip a paper towel in water. The water will soak into the towel and rise several inches above the surface of the water. It will not drain back into the source, and it will stop rising when the GFP equals the capillary attraction of the fibers in the paper.

There will be a naturally occurring "perched water table" (PWT) in containers when soil particulate size is under about .125 (1/Cool inch.. This is water that occupies a layer of soil that is always saturated & will not drain from the portion of the pot it occupies. It can evaporate or be used by the plant, but physical forces will not allow it to drain. It is there because the capillary pull of the soil at some point will surpass the GFP; therefore, the water does not drain, it is perched. The smaller the size of the particles in a soil, the greater the height of the PWT. This water can be tightly held in heavy (comprised of small particles) soils and ‘perch’ (think of a bird on a perch) just above the container bottom where it will not drain; or, it can perch in a layer of heavy soil on top of a coarse drainage layer, where it will not drain.

Imagine that we have five cylinders of varying heights, shapes, and diameters, each with drain holes, and we fill them all with the same soil mix, then saturate the soil. The PWT will be exactly the same height in each container. This saturated area of the container is where roots initially seldom penetrate & where root problems frequently begin due to a lack of aeration. Water and nutrient uptake are also compromised by lack of air in the root zone. Keeping in mind the fact that the PWT height is dependent on soil particle size and has nothing to do with height or shape of the container, we can draw the conclusion that: Tall growing containers will always have a higher percentage of unsaturated soil than squat containers when using the same soil mix. The reason: The level of the PWT will be the same in each container, with the taller container providing more usable, air holding soil above the PWT. From this, we could make a good case that taller containers are easier to grow in.

A given volume of large soil particles has less overall surface area when compared to the same volume of small particles and therefore less overall adhesive attraction to water. So, in soils with large particles, GFP more readily overcomes capillary attraction. They drain better. We all know this, but the reason, often unclear, is that the height of the PWT is lower in coarse soils than in fine soils. The key to good drainage is size and uniformity of soil particles. Mixing large particles with small is often very ineffective because the smaller particles fit between the large, increasing surface area which increases the capillary attraction and thus the water holding potential. An illustrative question: How much perlite do we need to add to pudding to make it drain well?

We have seen that adding a coarse drainage layer at the container bottom does not improve drainage. It does though, reduce the volume of soil required to fill a container, making the container lighter. When we employ a drainage layer in an attempt to improve drainage, what we are actually doing is moving the level of the PWT higher in the pot. This simply reduces the volume of soil available for roots to colonize. Containers with uniform soil particle size from top of container to bottom will yield better and more uniform drainage and have a lower PWT than containers using the same soil with drainage layers.

The coarser the drainage layer, the more detrimental to drainage it is because water is more (for lack of a better scientific word) reluctant to make the downward transition because the capillary pull of the soil above the drainage layer is stronger than the GFP. The reason for this is there is far more surface area on soil particles for water to be attracted to in the soil above the drainage layer than there is in the drainage layer, so the water perches. I know this goes against what most have thought to be true, but the principle is scientifically sound, and experiments have shown it as so. Many nurserymen employ the pot-in-pot or the pot-in-trench method of growing to capitalize on the science.

If you discover you need to increase drainage, you can simply insert an absorbent wick into a drainage hole & allow it to extend from the saturated soil in the container to a few inches below the bottom of the pot, or allow it to contact soil below the container where the earth acts as a giant wick and will absorb all or most of the perched water in the container, in most cases. Eliminating the PWT has much the same effect as providing your plants much more soil to grow in, as well as allowing more, much needed air in the root zone.

In simple terms: Plants that expire because of drainage problems either die of thirst because the roots have rotted and can no longer take up water, or they starve/"suffocate" because there is insufficient air at the root zone to insure normal water/nutrient uptake and root function.

Bark fines of fir, hemlock or pine, are excellent as the primary component of your soils. The lignin contained in bark keeps it rigid and the rigidity provides air-holding pockets in the root zone far longer than peat or compost mixes that too quickly break down to a soup-like consistency. Conifer bark also contains suberin, a lipid sometimes referred to as nature’s preservative. Suberin, more scarce as a presence in sapwood products and hardwood bark, dramatically slows the decomposition of conifer bark-based soils. It contains highly varied hydrocarbon chains and the microorganisms that turn peat to soup have great difficulty cleaving these chains.

To confirm the existence of the PWT and how effective a wick is at removing it, try this experiment: Fill a soft drink cup nearly full of garden soil. Add enough water to fill to the top, being sure all soil is saturated. Punch a drain hole in the bottom of the cup and allow the water to drain. When drainage has stopped, insert a wick into the drain hole . Take note of how much additional water drains. Even touching the soil with a toothpick through the drain hole will cause substantial additional water to drain. The water that drains is water that occupied the PWT. A greatly simplified explanation of what occurs is: The wick or toothpick "fools" the water into thinking the pot is deeper than it is, so water begins to move downward seeking the "new" bottom of the pot, pulling the rest of the water in the PWT along with it. If there is interest, there are other simple and interesting experiments you can perform to confirm the existence of a PWT in container soils. I can expand later in the thread.

I always remain cognizant of these physical principles whenever I build a soil. I haven’t used a commercially prepared soil in many years, preferring to build a soil or amend one of my 2 basic mixes to suit individual plantings. I keep many ingredients at the ready for building soils, but the basic building process usually starts with conifer bark and perlite. Sphagnum peat plays a secondary role in my container soils because it breaks down too quickly to suit me, and when it does, it impedes drainage and reduces aeration. Size matters. Partially composted conifer bark fines (pine is easiest to find and least expensive) works best in the following recipes, followed by uncomposted bark in the <3/8" range.

Note that there is no sand or compost in the soils I use. Sand, as most of you think of it, can improve drainage in some cases, but it reduces aeration by filling valuable macro-pores in soils. Unless sand particle size is fairly uniform and/or larger than about ½ BB size I leave it out of soils. Compost is too unstable for me to consider using in soils. The small amount of micro-nutrients it supplies can easily be delivered by one or more of a number of chemical or organic sources.

My Basic Soils

5 parts pine bark fines
1 part sphagnum peat (not reed or sedge peat please)
1-2 parts perlite
garden lime (or gypsum in some cases)
controlled release fertilizer (if preferred)
micro-nutrient powder, other continued source of micro-nutrients, or fertilizer with all nutrients - including minors

Big batch:
2-3 cu ft pine bark fines
5 gallons peat
5 gallons perlite
2 cups dolomitic (garden) lime (or gypsum in some cases)
2 cups CRF (if preferred)
1/2 cup micro-nutrient powder (or other source of the minors)

Small batch:
3 gallons pine bark
1/2 gallon peat
1/2 gallon perlite
4 tbsp lime (or gypsum in some cases)
1/4 cup CRF (if preferred)
micro-nutrient powder (or other source of the minors)

I have seen advice that some highly organic (practically speaking - almost all container soils are highly organic) container soils are productive for up to 5 years or more. I disagree and will explain why if there is interest. Even if you were to substitute fir bark for pine bark in this recipe (and this recipe will long outlast any peat based soil) you should only expect a maximum of two to three years life before a repot is in order. Usually perennials, including trees (they're perennials too) should be repotted more frequently to insure vigor closer to their genetic potential. If a soil is desired that will retain structure for long periods, we need to look more to inorganic components. Some examples are crushed granite, pea stone, coarse sand (see above - usually no smaller than ½ BB size in containers, please), Haydite, lava rock (pumice), Turface or Schultz soil conditioner, and others.

For long term (especially woody) plantings and houseplants, I use a soil that is extremely durable and structurally sound. The basic mix is equal parts of pine bark, Turface, and crushed granite.

1 part uncomposted pine or fir bark
1 part Turface
1 part crushed granite
1 Tbsp gypsum per gallon of soil
CRF (if desired)
Source of micro-nutrients or use a fertilizer that contains all essentials
I use 1/8 -1/4 tsp Epsom salts per gallon of fertilizer solution when I fertilize (check your fertilizer - if it is soluble, it is probable it does not contain Ca or Mg.


Joe
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KW4
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Posted: Sun 22 Mar, 2009 10:25 pm

I have recently been studying Al's posts and find them very helpful. I have started using his "gritty" mix (turface, pine bark and granite) and while it is still early I think it will really help with my tendency to overwater.
For those that are interested, he also has some very informative posts on fertilizing.
Also, in regards to my previous question on this thread about inorganic media holding nutrients, it seems turface and DE have high EC quotients and therefore should hold nutrients well.
I may compare the gritty mix to turface or DE alone- I think it would do well.

Kyle
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Brancato
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Posted: Mon 23 Mar, 2009 12:15 am

By the way, I only meant to post the link and not Al's whole thread? Sorry about that folks. That is all Al's information at the container thread on Gardenweb.com, not my own.

Joe
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Laaz
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Posted: Mon 23 Mar, 2009 12:19 am

You need to be careful adding lime. Make sure you check the PH before hand. Also trifoliata likes a more acidic soil than most citrus, so keep that in mind if you get anything grafted to flying dragon (dwarfing) or standard trifoliata.

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Millet
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Posted: Mon 23 Mar, 2009 1:01 am

Lime and citrus do not go together. Lime raises the pH, citrus like a lower pH around 6- to 6.5 - Millet **(1,399-)**
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