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jerobi
Joined: 13 Jun 2008 Posts: 17
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Posted: Sat 14 Jun, 2008 12:30 pm |
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laidbackdood wrote: | Hi,one last point= I notice on all the above photos there are no leaves or branches towards the bottom of the trunk.What i have learnt from this forum is the lower leaves and branches are a reflection of the root health.Leaf drop in that area is usually the result of soggy roots.Am i right millet?This is where your leaf drop has taken place right?I would also suggest you to use the whole container up to the brim(leave an inch lip for watering).Use all of the container space to avoid the perched water table.I have learnt a lot from this forum,especially from Millet. Cheers |
This is a dwarf citrus from FWG and it didn't have any leaves or branches on the lower half of the trunk when it arrived. I think the leaf drop has been relatively average around the whole tree if that helps. |
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Millet Citruholic
Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 6656 Location: Colorado
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Posted: Sat 14 Jun, 2008 3:14 pm |
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Being bare root @ 78F for a couple hours in the open air, you will have a dead tree. Leaving them bear root @ 78F for 10 minutes in the open air, you will have dead root hairs, they need to be in water or damp earth covering. - Millet |
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jerobi
Joined: 13 Jun 2008 Posts: 17
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Posted: Sat 14 Jun, 2008 4:35 pm |
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Eek. I had it inside with the shade and A/C for a little while and thought it would be good for the roots to dry out a bit. Hopefully I didn't kill it.
I just remixed with 50% original mix and 50% perlite. Both pots, since they had the same mix ratios. Hopefully I didn't kill the lime and hopefully the lemon will improve from its "not doing anything" status. I gave both trees a quick root rinse right before repotting just so they would have a little moisture. I also misted the leaves a bit.
Should I leave them outside or bring them indoors for X days?
When should I do the next feeding with the Miracle Grow for Acid Lovers + Folate Pro?
Thanks all for the help. |
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Skeeter Moderator
Joined: 23 Jul 2006 Posts: 2218 Location: Pensacola, FL zone 9
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Posted: Sat 14 Jun, 2008 10:44 pm |
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The AC may have been even worse than outdoors in the shade since the humidity would have been even lower inside.
Those roots did look kind of brown, but some did seem to be firm.
I would put the tree outside in a shady spot and would not fertilize until I saw growth. _________________ Skeet
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laidbackdood Citruholic
Joined: 05 Jan 2006 Posts: 180 Location: Perth.Western Australia.
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Posted: Sat 14 Jun, 2008 10:55 pm |
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Keep them out of direct sunlight and leave them alone now.You could lift the pots off the ground with pot feet to aid air circulation around the pot.You will need to be patient now and keep your fingers crossed.Only dream about feeding!!!You never feed a stressed tree.In a few weeks time,hope you will see some new growth or twig die back and leaf drop if their upset!!!.Then just sprinkle a little slow release fert on top and thats it(half the recomended amount for the pot size when you see some growth.Personally,i would give you a 70/30 chance they have had it!! I have killed heaps of trees in the same way,so i feel the burn!!!The lack of leaves down low,means they might have had trouble before you even got them.Im not sure of the process your supplier was following,i presume in pot and then mix removed before sending bare root,others could enlighten you here.However,i remember millet suggesting not to remove the lower leaves and limbs as they work hand in hand with the roots.I dont think the supplier should have removed them or sent you a tree with them missing! what does everyone else think here?
That dark mushy brown bit in the centre doesnt look so good. Try to balance your rootball to the top growth now,so the roots can provide what is needed for the top.Think about getting a fresh tree and trying again.You will be fine next time.Its just a learning curve for all of us but fun though.All the best. |
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jerobi
Joined: 13 Jun 2008 Posts: 17
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Posted: Mon 16 Jun, 2008 12:07 pm |
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Thanks guys. Just my luck that it rained a bit yesterday, too. I'm not going to water these trees for at least a week so that things dry out. Should I pull them inside if there is rain in the forecast or do you think just being in the warmer outdoors is best for them at this point?
Here's hoping for the best. |
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Skeeter Moderator
Joined: 23 Jul 2006 Posts: 2218 Location: Pensacola, FL zone 9
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Posted: Mon 16 Jun, 2008 11:09 pm |
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Like LBD (laidbackdood) said, I would do everything you can to help it dry out a bit--that includes keeping it out of the rain.
You did not say if you removed any of the mushy roots before repotting, but that would help remove some of the disease from the soil. Even if you did not remove roots, your tree has lost roots and cannot support the existing top, so it would help to cut some of it off--I would say at least 10 to 20 %. _________________ Skeet
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jerobi
Joined: 13 Jun 2008 Posts: 17
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Posted: Tue 17 Jun, 2008 11:18 am |
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I was under the impression that dwarf citrus tends to regulate its own above-soil growth based on the available root system. In general, I thought the tree would die back to a sustainable level. Are you sure I wouldn't be adding more stress by trimming it back myself and creating open branch wounds? |
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jerobi
Joined: 13 Jun 2008 Posts: 17
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Posted: Tue 17 Jun, 2008 1:40 pm |
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I have a coworker who suggests dipping the roots into some rooting hormone. Should I give it a shot, given how weak the root system is on the lime tree? |
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Skeeter Moderator
Joined: 23 Jul 2006 Posts: 2218 Location: Pensacola, FL zone 9
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Posted: Tue 17 Jun, 2008 6:31 pm |
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The tree will try to support all of the existing top, when it fails to support it, the top or part of it will die. You will probably loose more of the top if you let the tree adjust than if you reduce the load now. You are the one that saw the roots first hand, you know more than I do about how much of the roots were dead--it is your decision. _________________ Skeet
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jerobi
Joined: 13 Jun 2008 Posts: 17
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Posted: Tue 17 Jun, 2008 6:48 pm |
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Skeeter wrote: | The tree will try to support all of the existing top, when it fails to support it, the top or part of it will die. You will probably loose more of the top if you let the tree adjust than if you reduce the load now. You are the one that saw the roots first hand, you know more than I do about how much of the roots were dead--it is your decision. |
Thanks Skeeter. I just looked back at Page 1 of this topic and it looks like my root pictures are invalid. I used a BugMeNot random login for PhotoBucket when I uploaded those and I guess another random person decided to remove the pics just to be destructive. I'll try and get those pics back up again since you guys know a lot more about what healthy roots should look like.
The leaves are still tightly curled and I imagine that they will inevitably fall off at this point. What kind of cutback would be best? Is it better to lop off entire upper branches or just the top 1/3 of all branches?
I don't want to jinx it but is there much hope for survival if all the leaves fall off in the middle of summer? Has anyone ever had that happen and seen the tree send out a new flush of growth before the winter?
I'm also really curious about this jar of rooting hormone. I know that rooting hormone is best when trying to cultivate a fresh cutting, but would it be beneficial to dust some of it on the open wounds if I carefully trim off any mushy, dead roots?
Yeah, another fresh batch of questions. Thanks guys. |
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laidbackdood Citruholic
Joined: 05 Jan 2006 Posts: 180 Location: Perth.Western Australia.
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Posted: Wed 18 Jun, 2008 8:34 am |
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I have used the rooting hormone but it was in the form of a liquid,not a powder.I would be more inclined to use hydrogen peroxide next time you water. The roots have suffered from lack of 02.HP adds more oxygen and unlike the air spaces in the soil,it hangs around for a long time.When you water and provide o2 its used up pretty quick by the plant,then you need the mix to dry,so there are air spaces(pores) in the soil,where the water once was.That is why its so important the mix is left to dry out between irrigations.The top half of the mix drying out is conducive for root growth,you must let it dry.
Hp will freshen up the roots.I use 6%,the same you use to bleach hair but 3 % is ok,as is food grade. I measure 4 or 5 tablespoons for 5 litres into the watering can.Add it to the water,dont add water to it.Water,just enough to see it come out the bottom and thats it.Leave it a week and see what happens.If you google,you can find out more.This could be your saving grace.I have a bald plant myself(no leaves at all!!).I did that and i see some new shoots starting to come out now.You could also add the rooting liquid to your water when you water next time.At the moment,the roots need time to recover and settle down,so dont ask much from them or stimulate them.personally,i would hp them next feed,see how it goes.If there is sign of growth,you could water with a little rooting liquid in your water.Does the mix drain better with that extra perlite? Cheers |
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Skeeter Moderator
Joined: 23 Jul 2006 Posts: 2218 Location: Pensacola, FL zone 9
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Posted: Wed 18 Jun, 2008 12:33 pm |
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I don't know for sure which pruning method would be best, I can see advantages and disadvantges for both approaches. The growing tips tend to need more support, so it may be best to remove more of them until the tree recovers.
I think LBD's suggestion of H2O2 is a good idea. _________________ Skeet
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jerobi
Joined: 13 Jun 2008 Posts: 17
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Posted: Wed 18 Jun, 2008 3:57 pm |
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laidbackdood wrote: | I have used the rooting hormone but it was in the form of a liquid,not a powder.I would be more inclined to use hydrogen peroxide next time you water. The roots have suffered from lack of 02.HP adds more oxygen and unlike the air spaces in the soil,it hangs around for a long time.When you water and provide o2 its used up pretty quick by the plant,then you need the mix to dry,so there are air spaces(pores) in the soil,where the water once was.That is why its so important the mix is left to dry out between irrigations.The top half of the mix drying out is conducive for root growth,you must let it dry.
Hp will freshen up the roots.I use 6%,the same you use to bleach hair but 3 % is ok,as is food grade. I measure 4 or 5 tablespoons for 5 litres into the watering can.Add it to the water,dont add water to it.Water,just enough to see it come out the bottom and thats it.Leave it a week and see what happens.If you google,you can find out more.This could be your saving grace.I have a bald plant myself(no leaves at all!!).I did that and i see some new shoots starting to come out now.You could also add the rooting liquid to your water when you water next time.At the moment,the roots need time to recover and settle down,so dont ask much from them or stimulate them.personally,i would hp them next feed,see how it goes.If there is sign of growth,you could water with a little rooting liquid in your water.Does the mix drain better with that extra perlite? Cheers |
I did a low-rent porosity test with the old mix and the new mix (w/ 50% more perlite). The new mix does drain better (3/4 drainage with new vs 5/8 drainage with old). After looking at my hands while repotting I think my issue might be that the bark and the perlite have too much fine particle matter (bark and tiny perlite) in it that is holding water.
Is the tree going to benefit from being brought indoors to dry out for a week in 75F-80F indoor temps vs. being outdoors in the heat and potential for unplanned rain while I'm at work? Also, how beneficial is the sunlight in keeping it alive in its weakened state? It wouldn't get much light indoors in my house.
The tree hasn't had a growth tip since I got it two months ago, so perhaps I'll just lop off some of the upper branches.
I did a water meter check before I left today and it was still quite wet after a few inches from the top. I know the water meters are mostly unreliable vs checking with your hands for dampness or pot weight, of course. I haven't watered it since I repotted on Saturday put its possible it had a bit of unplanned rain. Should I give it some H2O2 now or is the overall soil drying far more important at this stage?
It just occurred to me, but perhaps I am better off repotting in a smaller pot temporarily to give it a better chance at survival. Good plan? |
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jerobi
Joined: 13 Jun 2008 Posts: 17
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Posted: Thu 19 Jun, 2008 12:16 am |
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I started to repot to a smaller pot and changed my mind after feeling the soil near the roots. Thankfully, even after an unscheduled thunderstorm while I was at work, the soil was still mostly dry and crumbly. I think I'll leave that alone and let it keep drying. |
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