This is my first time learning of this forum.

I got two 2-3 year trees from Four Winds - a Meyer Lemon and a Bearss Lime. I planted both in a fast-draining soilless mix of turface, small pine bark, and perlite. There is a handful of gypsum mixed in there along with some Osmocote. I have fertilized three times with some Acid-loving Miracle Grow and Folate-Pro since planting these trees in early May.

I know it takes awhile for citrus tress to get over transplant shock and that they will grow out their roots before they grow new leaves and branches. It's been awhile now and I haven't seen a hint of new growth. There has been some leaf dropping as well - mostly after the planting, which I took to be normal.

Here's the Meyer Lemon, in what I think is decent shape but no growth:




...and the Bearss Lime, with considerable leaf curling.





....and a quick pic of the soil medium. Note that it looks quite wet because I was worried that it was draining through the sides and gave it a good, slow watering last night. Now I wonder if it really wants airflow.




What's the suggested cause here? Over watering? Under watering? Nutrients?

How often should I be fertilizing in a fast-draining mix? Should I consider removing and drying out the soil medium? It seems like it is too soon for it to be overly compacted.

The lime is definitely not looking good. I appreciate your comments.

The tree's outside leaves, and the upper leaves are curling more than the few center and lower leaves that are not receiving the full light. Perhaps the growth medium is too fast draining, or contains to high a level of air porosity, and the root tips are not retaining enouch contact moisture. This is determend by a porosity/drainable pore space test. In my view the water holding content of your medium could be inadequate. The faster the water pass through, the quicker the nutrients are leached out, and smaller the water quantity that is absorbed into the medium. Have you done a soil porosity (drainable pore space) test? It should be in the 30-40 percent level. - Millet

Thank you Millet - I was hoping you might reply.

Can you point me in the right direction for performing a soil porosity test? I did a quick search on the forums but I got too many indirect references.

So it sounds like a moisture issue to you? I gave it a slow, deep soak last night. I took the pictures this morning. I had hoped that the any thirsty roots would have relayed the moisture upward overnight and convinced the leaves to uncurl, but perhaps I am expecting too much from 12 hours overnight? I'll look again when I get home.

When I dig a finger tip a few inches down into the soil (as I did last night before the longer-than-normal watering), it does seem to be a little damp. Would this curling pattern also occur with too much water, in your opinion?

Also, any suggestion on how often to feed in a fast-draining medium? On one hand I thought the turface and pine bark would retain a decent bit of nutrients through a few weeks of watering. On the other hand, I can also see the logic that much of the nutrients are being flushed in a fast-growing medium. This struck me as more of a water issue vs. lacking nutrients but I admittedly have zero experience with these fast-draining mixes.

The medium might be retaining adequate water, and the medium might not be retaining adequate water. That is the reason for a porosity test. Further, the container is rather narrow and is only partially filled. How deep in inches is the actual medium? The reason I ask is to find out how many inches of qualified root growth area the container is providing the roots, as the perched water table is, of course, disqualifying a couple inches located in the bottom of the container. Lastly, everything could prove to be OK, and the problem could be damage to the root system itself. I will post how to do a porosity test later today. - Millet

How often are you watering? How do you determine when to water?

I do not use the turface, but I have media that is even chunkier than your's. I water about once a week in summer if there is no rain.

The drainable pore space for trees should be 25% to 35%. To determine the water holding capacity *AND* drainable pore space of a growth medium, follow these steps:

1) Select the container to be used. Remember that in short or taller containers the air space will vary with the same growth medium.

2) Place a VERY thin polyethylene bag (freezer bag) of sufficient size in the container to act as a waterproof liner.

3) Fill the bag in the container with the growth medium in question, firm in as if a tree were being planted.

4) Take a known volume of water and slowly fill the container until the growth medium is fully saturated. Allow the container to sit for one hour or longer. If bark and peat are components of the growth medium and they are very dry, additional time may be required. Add additional water as needed since the growth medium may absorb a sizable quantity. Record the total volume of water added. This represents the TOTAL PORE SPACE for the growth medium in this depth container.

5) Suspend the container over a large water tight container and puncture the freezer bag liner through the bottom. Allow 5 to 10 minutes for drainage. DO NOT TILT OR TIP the container as this increases the length of the drainage column (depth) and will give a false reading.

6) Record the volume of water drained from the container.

7)Divide the volume drained from the container by the total volume of water added. This figure represents the percent drainable pore space and should be 25% to 35%. In general, fresh media with values below 20% are unsuitable for most container trees. Likewise, values above 35% represent excessive drainage and therefore a limited supply of available water. This means frequent irrigation and probably excessive leaching of nutrients.

It is also advisable to perform a drainage test on growth media in use for some time. Such a test is especially important when new growth medium components are being tested. Compaction and shrinkage of most media occurs with with normal settling, watering and decomposition of some of the organic matter. in addition, plant roots fill some of the pores, especially around the sides of the container and at the bottom. In general, values below 20% after four months are likely to cause root suffocation if over watering occurs either from irrigation or rainfall. (Plant Production in Containers II) - Millet

If you are watering every other day, I think you are overwatering. The problem is that once the tree has been overwatered, the symptoms are the same as too little water--because the tree is getting too little water --once a significant portion of the roots are dead or non-functional.

I would go ahead and measure the porosity of your media like Millet said, but do it on the same media in another container. This tree does not need more water. You will have a difficult time getting your tree back to health, you will have to walk a thin line, letting the media dry our enough to re-grow some roots, but not too much because it has no reserve.

I think I would carefully pull the tree out of the container and see what condition the roots are in. If there are brown mushy roots, trim them off. You may need to remove some of the top so that the roots that are left can support it.

Good Luck

I agree with skeeter.I have had similar problems like you with waterlogged soil.The leaves look quite pale and that is often caused by waterlogged soil or lack of nitrogen.One of my trees has pale leaves like that and that was the problem.I left it to dry out and now the roots are happy and taking up water.I believe if they get saturated,they just stop taking up water all together and the top suffers from dehydration!
One good thing about perlite is its holds onto nutrients on its surface,so even when used for good drainage it will keep hold of water/nutrients on its surface and aerate at the same time.That tree is going to die,if your not careful.I would gently remove it,check the state of the roots as skeeter said.Trim any mushy dark brown ones.Re plant with a fresh mix with far more perlite added.Trim some top in relation to the root pruning.
I was talking to a lady the other day who really know her stuff.She suggested
to = put some mix in the pot.Sprinkle a little slow release on that.Put some more mix over that,then put your tree in then.Dont mix the fert in the mix ,in and around the roots as they dont like it.The roots will find the fert underneath.She is a horticultralist(spelt wrong) and has her own nursery growing all sorts= avocados,plums,all citrus,persimmens,and lots of other non edible trees and plants! I couldnt believe her knowledge.Good luck with your tree,i know its not easy.
p.s i also read in a book on citrus that you should water early morning or evening.Not in the middle of the day as the stomata(leaf pores) close in the day to conserve water loss and therfore the soil remains saturated for longer as the plant is not taking up water at this time.Interesting a!

Actually, there is no set time schedule for when to water a containerized citrus tree. The frequency of watering depends on: 1) weather, 2) wind, 3) tree size, 4) container size, 5) the relationship between the two, 6). growth medium used, 7) porosity, container type (plastic or clay), 9) ingredients used, 10) medum age. No two trees, and no two locations are the same. Watering is not a science, watering is a learned art. However, I would agree every two days is probably too much. As far as watering, morning is best, I would never water any container at night. The REALLY important ingredient in a growth medium, other than moisture, is OXYGEN. Roots do not die form appling too much water, what they actually die from, when over watered, is the lack of oxygen. If you use slow release fertilizers, I would recommend that you either thoroughly mix them evenly throughout the medium, or place them on top. It is very easy to know the condition of your trees root system, --- just look at them. If we can be of any further assistance, just ask. Welcome to the Citrus Growers forum. WE ARE EXCITED THAT YOU BECAME A MEMBER, THANK YOU. The very best of luck to you and your tree. - Millet

Thanks all - I appreciate the advice and background.

I was trying to imply above that I only watered every two days during this week's massive heat wave. Otherwise I agree with all of you that it would indeed be way too much water!

It sounds like I really need to let things dry out and . Tomorrow I plan to carefully remove the lime tree, check the roots, and dump the soilless mix onto a tarp in a thin layer to dry out for most of the day. Then I'll do a porisity density test. Then some more drying so I don't put it back in the pot soaking wet, then re-plant.

I feel like the actual mix percentages are at proven ratios so I don't think I'll change much there - plus the turface was pretty hard to track down. Most of the osmocote is probably intact as well, as is the gypsum. My hose attachement puts out at high power even at the "shower" setting and I think perhaps I was adding to the mix compaction rate by hitting the top with too strong a water stream.

I'll try and take some pictures of the roots. Does this sound like a good course of action? The roots should benefit from 12-24 hours in a bareroot state, right? My hunch is that they would be better off drying out a bit while not in direct sunlight - rather than putting them in a plastic bag and taking the bareroot tree inside.

This should also give me a chance to lift the pot with dry mix and tree so I can start using weight more as a guide when to water.

Lastly - any suggestions on the frequency of using liquid fertilizer in a fast-draining mix like mine?

I wouldnt leave them bare root,if it was me.Millet would know more than me but you have fine root hairs that can easily be damaged.Like millet suggets o2 is very important in your mix.Hence,the advice to add more perlite.You will be impressed by the drainage and its very hard to over water in this mix.You could just add extra perlite to your existing mix,which i am sure would improve things.
Citrus hate wet feet and lack of 02.Their demand for water is not that great.
Look at the origins of citrus,they come from dry climates.
I would suggest you make up a new mix and make it 50% perlite and the rest of your components.Put your tree in it,then lift up the pot to gauge its weight.This will help for future reference for when to water.Only water when the weight feels similar.Water this mix slowly,until water comes out the bottom and then leave it,until it feels a similar weight(then water slowly,until water flows out the bottom/repeat cycle).This will obviously be more often in hotter periods.Its winter here and i am watering once a month!This mix will feel pretty light when you first repot and lift up.The watering adds a fair bit of weight.Only feed when new growth begins and then at half strength,slow release(osmocote) and scratched into the surface soil.That should be fine.Only feed when there is active growth.
I have killed a lot of trees by using the wrong mix/overwatering/compaction and starving my mix of 02. Get your mix right and only water when needed.Learn from the mistakes that other people have made,like me lol!!!!There is lots of friendly advice going on at this forum and everybody is keen to help.Save yourself some money!Good luck.Cheers

Hi,one last point= I notice on all the above photos there are no leaves or branches towards the bottom of the trunk.What i have learnt from this forum is the lower leaves and branches are a reflection of the root health.Leaf drop in that area is usually the result of soggy roots.Am i right millet?This is where your leaf drop has taken place right?I would also suggest you to use the whole container up to the brim(leave an inch lip for watering).Use all of the container space to avoid the perched water table.I have learnt a lot from this forum,especially from Millet. Cheers

Ok, the tree is out and the soil mix is spread and drying.

...And I'm off to buy some Perlite. This mix is really moist after 36 hours. Also: I have a piece of trimmed windowscreen at the bottom to keep the particles from flowing out of the 20 of so drain holes I drilled when I first planted. I think the mix itself it more a problem with water retention than the piece of screen but I thought it was worth mentioning for the full story.



The roots look...I'm not sure. I've seen it before on a previous tree when they are so spongy that they fall apart in your hand. It isn't that bad yet. They also don't seem to be dry and sturdy - only a few strands on the left edge are more grey and firm than dark brown and wet. Here are some pics.




I'm thinking that cutting off all the brown is a bad idea. Right now I have it bare-root outside in 78F temps while I run to the store. Hopefully that will give the roots a little time to dry out for the first time in weeks and not hurt them by being bareroot for a few hours. If anyone disagrees, please let me know.

Thanks for the tips so far! This mix wasn't supposed to retain so much water.