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Grafting in my small non commercial Florida Citrus grove????
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Darkman Citruholic
Joined: 20 Jul 2010 Posts: 968 Location: Pensacola Florida South of I-10 Zone 8b/9a
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Posted: Mon 27 Feb, 2012 9:47 pm |
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I have about 30 citrus trees now entering their second year all planted in the ground on land that I own and live on. This is not a commercial venture. Recently, on a banana forum, it has been questioned as to if it was illegal for a FLORIDA homeowner to propagate citrus for non commercial use on their own land. Everyone agreeded that the transportation of citrus was not the question and it is understood that you can't do that.
I would love to be able to graft Citrus at my home in Florida for non commercial purposes. Shortly after joining here is when I was informed that citrus propagation in Florida was illegal. I believe that posts of Malcolm Manners and conversations I had with Skeeter both supported this. Recently I attempted to find the statutes/rules that prohibited homeowner propagation and I located this Florida State Statute but it appears to only address propagation in Citrus nurseries. I placed the bold lettering for identification and for emphasis!
F.S.S. 581.1843 Citrus nursery stock propagation and production and the establishment of regulated areas around citrus nurseries.
(1)As used in this section, the term commercial citrus grove means a solid set planting of 40 or more citrus trees.
(2)Effective January 1, 2007, it is unlawful for any person to propagate for sale or movement any citrus nursery stock that was not propagated or grown on a site and within a protective structure approved by the department and that is not at least 1 mile away from commercial citrus groves. A citrus nursery registered with the department prior to April 1, 2006, shall not be required to comply with the 1-mile setback from commercial citrus groves while continuously operating at the same location for which it was registered. However, the nursery shall be required to propagate citrus within a protective structure approved by the department. Effective January 1, 2008, it shall be unlawful to distribute any citrus nursery stock that was not produced in a protective structure approved by the department.
This is the F.S.S. definition of Nursery stock means all plants, trees, shrubs, vines, bulbs, cuttings, grafts, scions, or buds grown or kept for or capable of propagation or distribution, unless specifically excluded by the rules of the department.
This from July 28, 2009 Citrus Growers Forum :: View topic - Best rootstock for in ground tangerine in SW Florida
Malcolm_Manners wrote: |
First off, because of greening and canker diseases, unless you are a licensed citrus nurseryman (with the positive-pressure, sealed, psyllid-proof greenhouses), it is illegal to propagate your own citrus in Florida -- even one tree for your own use. So no one will sell you seeds legally. But grafted trees are readily available at retail, and that would save you a couple years anyway
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Malcolm M. Manners
John and Ruth Tyndall Professor of Citrus Science
Florida Southern College
Lakeland |
A few lines later he reiterates
Malcolm_Manners wrote: | Yes, propagation by any means, in any number, for any reason, is forbidden (federal as well as state mandate) |
I also found this but I think it is referring the the production of nursery stock for sale to dooryard gardeners not the dooryard gardener engaging in propagation for himself. Am I wrong? The first line is setting the topic and it states, "Commercial and dooryard citrus nursery stock" which to me means (commercial citrus nursery stock) and (dooryard citrus nursery stock). The first being citrus trees that are destined for sale to the commercial grower meeting the legal definition as set forth in the Florida statutes for a citrus grove and the second trees destined to enter the retail sales to homeowners. Please carefully read and disect this and tell me what you think and WHY you interpert it that way.
5B-62.011 Requirements for Citrus Propagation.
Commercial and dooryard citrus nursery stock shall be propagated according to the following provisions unless exempted in Rule 5B-62.016, F.A.C.
(1) Propagative material including budwood, air-layers, cuttings and all topworking material shall be from source trees produced or grown in accordance with Rule 5B-62.012, F.A.C., and for which a Certificate of Source Tree Registration (DACS-08072) has been issued as specified in Rule 5B-62.017, F.A.C.
(2) Budwood shall be taken under the direct supervision of a witness authorized by the Department. Budwood from each source tree shall be wrapped separately. Each bundle shall be labeled showing variety, the tree identification number, and the number of buds counted or estimated.
(3) All propagative material data including topworking shall be recorded on a Source Tree Bud Cutting Report (DACS-08172) and submitted to the Bureau of Citrus Budwood Registration at the time of collection. Persons authorized to fill out a Source Tree Bud Cutting Report (DACS-08172), shall sign a Certification To Witness Registered Budwood form, DACS-08111.
(4) Propagations from each source tree shall be maintained in nursery rows or on greenhouse benches so that each group can be traced back to an individual source tree. Nurserymen shall use permanent tags to label each separate group of propagations with the source tree registration number.
(5) All citrus nursery stock and propagative plant parts shall remain within the approved structure at all times or be moved under protective cover.
Specific Authority 570.07(23), 581.031(1), (3), ( FS. Law Implemented 570.07(2), (13), 570.0705, 581.031(1), (14), (17), (23) FS. HistoryNew 12-26-06.
And this but again I think the reference to dooryard is delinating three groups:
1. For sale to homeowners
2. For their own use (research, observation or trialing)
3. For sale to Commercial growers of citrus
I think it is clear they are talking to commercial enterprises when they address the rule to, "nurserymen and growers shall:" and the end product is to be sold.
5B-62.007 Citrus Nursery Stock Certification Program.
(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to propagate or plant citrus nursery stock, which is not produced in accordance with the provisions of the Citrus Nursery Stock Certification Program. Participation in the Citrus Nursery Stock Certification Program shall not imply any warranty on the part of the nurserymen, the Department, or any employee thereof.
(2) Prior to propagating nursery stock (including dooryard, own-use and commercial citrus), nurserymen and growers shall:
(a) Register with the Division of Plant Industry filling out Form DACS-08004, Application for Certificate of Registration according to Rule 5B-2.002, F.A.C.
(b) Make application to produce citrus nursery stock on Form DACS-08066, Application to produce citrus nursery stock.
Applicants must agree to comply with all the conditions which apply to the Citrus Nursery Stock Certification Program as specified in this rule chapter.
Specific Authority 570.07(23), 581.031(1), (3), ( FS. Law Implemented 570.07(2), (13), 570.0705, 581.031(1), (14), (17), (23) FS. HistoryNew 12-26-06.
I spent awhile looking for this rule or law that addressed a homeowner propagating in his yard for his benefit and not for the sale or commercial use and I could not find it. I seem to recall that I did find it once before and posted it but I can not find it now.
Dr. Manners if you read this would you tell me where the rule/law is? Is it a federal and not a state issue? I checked USDA and DPI.
There are many highly intelligent people here and I hope that many of you will give your opinions.
Thanks, _________________ Charles in Pensacola
Life - Some assembly required, As is no warranty, Batteries not included, Instructions shipped separately and are frequently wrong!
Kentucky Bourbon - It may not solve the problem but it helps to make it tolerable! |
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Millet Citruholic
Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 6657 Location: Colorado
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Posted: Tue 28 Feb, 2012 12:57 am |
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Charles, you cannot do any propagation of any sort, or type, even on your own property, using your own personal trees. The only thing you can do is plant a citrus tree on your property that was grown by a licensed propagator that produced the tree inside a positive pressure screen house that has been inspected and approved by the authorities. Or you could move to Colorado and do whatever you wish. Colorado is still looking for a few good men. - Millet (328 ABo-) |
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A.T. Hagan Moderator
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 898 Location: Gainesville, Florida, United States, Earth - Sol III
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Posted: Tue 28 Feb, 2012 11:21 am |
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Having experienced this problem with what the actual law in print says versus the way it is interpreted I would start doing some calling around to the Fl. Dept. of Agriculture until you find the right office that deals with citrus propagation. What the law says in print and the way they interpret it can be seemingly wildly at variance.
Personally I think this ban on homeowners propagating citrus trees for their own personal use is baloney but if you really want to do this by the book you're going to have to speak with the agriculture dept. |
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Darkman Citruholic
Joined: 20 Jul 2010 Posts: 968 Location: Pensacola Florida South of I-10 Zone 8b/9a
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Posted: Tue 28 Feb, 2012 8:44 pm |
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Millet and AT Hagen,
I know that is what is said (spoken) but I want to read it. I have 25 years of interpreting Florida law and I can say without a doubt no law enforcement officer could make a probable cause arrest from that statute on a home owner. The elements of the crime are just not there. There are some criminal statutes that are grey and case law is required to interpret them but these words are not grey. I probably will try to call the DPI and Ag Dept. to see if they can point to some other statute. _________________ Charles in Pensacola
Life - Some assembly required, As is no warranty, Batteries not included, Instructions shipped separately and are frequently wrong!
Kentucky Bourbon - It may not solve the problem but it helps to make it tolerable! |
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Malcolm_Manners Citrus Guru
Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 676 Location: Lakeland Florida
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Posted: Wed 29 Feb, 2012 9:30 am |
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I don't have more written statute than you've presented here. But USDA and FDACS officials do say, verbally, that the interpretation is correct -- no propagation by anyone, by any means, in any number, for any purpose, on any property, is legal unless certified by FDACS as a citrus nursery, and that always means either in a certified, psyllid-proof greenhouse, or if topworking existing outdoor trees, using certified budwood and under State inspection and licensing.
I doubt that anyone would be arrested and considered criminal over it, but they would certainly destroy your trees, and there might be a fine involved.
While one might not agree with the ruling, there is some logic to it, in that failure to control home-owner propagation of citrus could endanger nearby commercial plantings (as well as other home-owners' existing plantings). |
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Mark_T Citruholic
Joined: 30 Jun 2009 Posts: 757 Location: Gilbert,AZ
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Posted: Wed 29 Feb, 2012 1:03 pm |
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I would never move to Florida based on this law. |
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Mark_T Citruholic
Joined: 30 Jun 2009 Posts: 757 Location: Gilbert,AZ
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Posted: Wed 29 Feb, 2012 1:25 pm |
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Malcolm_Manners wrote: | I don't have more written statute than you've presented here. But USDA and FDACS officials do say, verbally, that the interpretation is correct -- no propagation by anyone, by any means, in any number, for any purpose, on any property, is legal unless certified by FDACS as a citrus nursery, and that always means either in a certified, psyllid-proof greenhouse, or if topworking existing outdoor trees, using certified budwood and under State inspection and licensing.
I doubt that anyone would be arrested and considered criminal over it, but they would certainly destroy your trees, and there might be a fine involved.
While one might not agree with the ruling, there is some logic to it, in that failure to control home-owner propagation of citrus could endanger nearby commercial plantings (as well as other home-owners' existing plantings). |
Given the issues Florida is facing, tighter restrictions make sense, but totally preventing someone Darkman from doing so is complete garbage. There are a number of ways they could allow this to happen and keep risks at a minimum. Creating some extra hoops to jump through while still allowing a path is fair. People like Darkman aren't the problem, it's the people that smuggle material inter-state or into the state from outside the country, people that are totally ignorant of the laws anyway or people that would violate said laws regardless. |
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Darkman Citruholic
Joined: 20 Jul 2010 Posts: 968 Location: Pensacola Florida South of I-10 Zone 8b/9a
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Posted: Thu 01 Mar, 2012 2:22 am |
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Malcolm_Manners wrote: | I don't have more written statute than you've presented here. But USDA and FDACS officials do say, verbally, that the interpretation is correct -- no propagation by anyone, by any means, in any number, for any purpose, on any property, is legal unless certified by FDACS as a citrus nursery, and that always means either in a certified, psyllid-proof greenhouse, or if topworking existing outdoor trees, using certified budwood and under State inspection and licensing.
I doubt that anyone would be arrested and considered criminal over it, but they would certainly destroy your trees, and there might be a fine involved.
While one might not agree with the ruling, there is some logic to it, in that failure to control home-owner propagation of citrus could endanger nearby commercial plantings (as well as other home-owners' existing plantings). |
Thanks for the reply Dr. Manners,
I completely agree the State has the right and the responsibility to protect the economy of the Citrus industry. I do believe that in this instance someone has overzealously threw the proverbial blanket over the problem. While I would never violate the law even if I completely believe it is being interpreted wrongly, I do not represent the vast majority of the public. This law/rule will not stop anyone that wishes to propagate Citrus anymore than the gun laws stop criminals from purchasing guns. If you are so incline to not respect the laws you will do what you want.
I stand by my interpretation and challenge anyone to make an effort to show me where I am wrong. The lip service of the rule makers doesnt make up for the poor wording of the statute.
I also believe they are taking the easy way out. They could easily supply certified budwood for those of us that have more than a passing interest in growing Citrus.
Mark_T wrote: | Given the issues Florida is facing, tighter restrictions make sense, but totally preventing someone Darkman from doing so is complete garbage. There are a number of ways they could allow this to happen and keep risks at a minimum. Creating some extra hoops to jump through while still allowing a path is fair. People like Darkman aren't the problem, it's the people that smuggle material inter-state or into the state from outside the country, people that are totally ignorant of the laws anyway or people that would violate said laws regardless. |
Mark thank you for your vote of confidence. Fair is not what they were looking for. Easy is what they did. Maybe in the future it will change but I doubt it. Short of a cure for all the Citrus problems I do not see them lifting any restrictions. I do believe that they could take it a step further and require that all Citrus plants be registered in the state. Sure would make it easier for them to confiscate them if they woke up one day and felt they needed too. _________________ Charles in Pensacola
Life - Some assembly required, As is no warranty, Batteries not included, Instructions shipped separately and are frequently wrong!
Kentucky Bourbon - It may not solve the problem but it helps to make it tolerable! |
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Malcolm_Manners Citrus Guru
Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 676 Location: Lakeland Florida
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Posted: Fri 02 Mar, 2012 1:45 pm |
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I guess I can see both arguments. The problem of course is the real cost to the State if they have to deal with individual homeowners who want "a budstick," but would balk at paying the real cost of getting that stick to them with all of the certification/recording steps needed. And even if someone were willing to pay big bucks, who would do it? The inspectors are overwhelmed by what they already have to do. |
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camo_hunter Citruholic
Joined: 10 Mar 2011 Posts: 82 Location: Wayne Co. Georgia Zn8
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Posted: Fri 02 Mar, 2012 5:13 pm |
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Darkman wrote: | Millet and AT Hagen,
I know that is what is said (spoken) but I want to read it. I have 25 years of interpreting Florida law and I can say without a doubt no law enforcement officer could make a probable cause arrest from that statute on a home owner. The elements of the crime are just not there. There are some criminal statutes that are grey and case law is required to interpret them but these words are not grey. I probably will try to call the DPI and Ag Dept. to see if they can point to some other statute. |
Darkman, I believe your interpretation is dead on. The limitations are on people propagating nursery stock, not homeowner/hobbyist from propagating their own trees. It looks like the law left homeowners/hobbyist exempt on purpose (they could have simply said any citrus tree, yet they limited the restriction to nursery stock). Everything there is addressing commercial operations. If there are govt. agencies that are claiming restrictions on homeowners, I think they need to go back to the drawing board. |
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Malcolm_Manners Citrus Guru
Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 676 Location: Lakeland Florida
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Posted: Fri 02 Mar, 2012 7:30 pm |
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However you guys choose to interpret the law, it is important to realize that the State and the USDA interpret it to mean ANY propagations for ANY reason, and they WILL come onto your property and burn trees, and they WILL fine you if you're discovered. And at least in this part of the state, they WILL find you, since they do neighborhood inspections all the time. I suppose you could countersue and spend vast amounts of money and time in the courts, and MAYBE you'd eventually win if not bankrupted first, but that's what it would take. It is definitely the Feds' and the State's intention to prevent your propagating. |
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Chris Citruholic
Joined: 26 Jul 2010 Posts: 92 Location: coastal San Diego sunset 24
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Posted: Fri 02 Mar, 2012 10:37 pm |
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This is pretty silly. Are you asking a question or picking a fight Darkman?
Are the rewards of grafting a few of your backyard trees worth the risk of spreading the most serious citrus desease in the world to farmers in Florida and potentially affecting a billion dollar industry?
If you have that many trees you should have more than enough fruit and varieties anyhow...
I hope you enjoy them |
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Hershell Moderator
Joined: 23 Nov 2009 Posts: 340 Location: Ga. zone 8
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Posted: Fri 02 Mar, 2012 11:51 pm |
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Yes I know that is the law in Florida. What I fail to to understand is that if you are propagating from healthy trees what is the problem? It is no worse than having a neglected tree that is diseased and just left and not destroyed. Why would anyone propagate diseased trees anyway? It you know how to graft I would hope you could detect disease and know to destroy it. Ga. is bad enough, I am glad that I don't live in Fl. Just my rant SORRY. _________________ Hershell
Nothing in the world takes the place of growing citrus. |
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Millet Citruholic
Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 6657 Location: Colorado
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Posted: Sat 03 Mar, 2012 1:56 am |
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Florida's main problem is most certainly not the home owner's tree. I would think abandoned commercial citrus groves would be a thousand times more dangerous to Florida's citrus industry. Has Florida burned them down?
On another subject, I received a telephone call last week advising me that canker has been found in Harris Citrus's nursery stock. Has anyone else heard this? - Millet (324 BO-) |
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Laaz Site Owner
Joined: 12 Nov 2005 Posts: 5664 Location: Dorchester County, South Carolina
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Posted: Sat 03 Mar, 2012 2:10 am |
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My neighbor just got back from FL last week, he said there are thousands of acres of abandoned citrus where he was somewhere below Orlando. _________________ Wal-Mart a great place to buy cheap plastic crap ! http://walmartwatch.com/ ...
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