Now that spring has sprung here in SE Texas, the bitrouni lemon seeds citrusboy sent are sprouting. I budded a few valentine buds to my grapefruit tree a few weeks ago from the seedlings I grew last year from citrusboy seeds. Thanks again, citrusboy

Phil, the Valentine buds that you grafted were immature buds, so won't they take the same amount of time to fruit as a seedling? - Millet

I grafted them on the top of a mature tree. I've heard this can cause early fruiting.

Alright Mr Texas!! Glad that spring has sprung down there! I had a trip down to Texas A&M last month and it was freezing! I was thinking, I couldn't grow any citrus here, and then went to get some Dixie Chicken!

Current Seedlings - 3 Britouni lemon sprouts, 1 Warren Limequat, 4 Microcitrus Inodora, 3 Chinotto/Lime Hybrids, 1 Citrus Hanayu, 3 Citrus Macrophylla. 2 88-2

Let's see how long these last with my semi green thumb

Phil, a bud "remembers" its node number when moved and grafted onto another scion. When an immature bud is grafted onto a mature tree, it still remembers it node number. I think the waiting time remains pretty much the same. - Millet

Could it be that by grafting onto the top of a mature tree that the growth will be faster--therefore achieving the required node count in less time?

My understanding is that if a MATURE bud is grafted onto an immature scion, the mature bud "remembers" it's node count and the fact that it is a mature bud, no matter how high or low the mature bud is grafted onto the rootstock. It only needs to obtain a little growth to fruit. Also, if an IMMATURE bud is grafted onto a mature tree the immature bud also "remembers" it's node count and the fact that it is still an immature bud, no matter how high or low the immature bud was grafted onto the mature tree. The imature but will start growing at whatever node number it was before it was removed from the mother tree. No time will be saved. - Millet

I don't think you got my question-- I'm talking about rate of growth, not number of nodes. If by grafting onto the top of a mature tree that can supply rapid growth rather than waiting for a seedling to develop the roots necessary to provide for growth, I would expect to save TIME --not skip any require nodes.

Skeet, as to your question concerning a possible increase in the rate of growth of an immature bud being grafted onto a mature tree with a large root system, my answer is that I am not sure if there would be a increase or not. My guess, (and it is just that, a guess) is that there would be no increase in growth. The energy created by a tree is done by the leaves and not the roots. Roots supply water and nutrients, and also act as storage units for food stuffs. Any additional advantage that a larger established root system would offer the new bud, would, of course, be greatly diminished by the competition of all the other meristems at the end of every branch and twig for the trees energy reserves. Like I said, it is only my guess. If an advantage was provided by grafting an immature bud onto mature trees, then the citrus industry would have long ago taken up such a practice, but of course the industry has not done so. Perhaps others might have a different view. - Millet

Hi Millet, Then I have a quick question. My Ellendale graft on my Calamondin took, grew a new 5" shoot and flowered this year. But another Calamondin shoot came out right by it. Should I cut any new Calamondin growth on the limb that contains the Ellendale graft, so that all the energy for that limb goes to the graft?

From my limited grafting experience, I have seen quite a variety in growth of buds on mature trees, several of which grew less than 6 inches in the first growing season. Several grew 1 to 2 feet in the first growing season. All of the aforementioned were grafted onto lower limbs. I had 2 grafts that grew over 4 ft on one growing season, one was on a rootstock sprout that was only pencil size when the bud sprouted, the other was grafted onto the top of a satsuma tree.

Maybe when Joe returns he can add some of his experience, but I am beginning to suspect that where it is grafted makes a lot of difference.

Now that I think of it, I had a Sudachi Graft about 1/2 of the way up my Yuzu on one tree and a Sudachi graft below the graft union on the other.

The one in the middle has outgrown the one below 10 to 1. Although the graft below is starting to send out some new shoots just recently. I am beginning to think that citrus isn't an exact science in some cases...

I bet any difference in the growth of a graft/bud is due to the vigor of the variety. Some rootstock are very vigorous, thus promote more growth, and some varieties are less vigorous. Same with different varieties of scions that buds are grafted onto. If a bud is taken from a very vigorous scion variety, aand then grafted onto a vigorous scion variety the growth would, of course, be greater, than if a bud from a non vigorous variety was used. I don't think it has much to do the height of placement. -Also, the time of year, weather, fertilizer, rainfall, and on and on and on. Millet

I agree there are a lot of factors affecting growth, but when you have the same variety are on the same tree at the same time, placement becomes the only difference. Height is not the only factor even here--the vigor of the limb it was placed on, the location of the placement, the location of the limb all probably make a difference from what I can see.

Joe, now that you are back, I know you may not get to catch up on all the threads, but this is one where I'm sure your experience would be very useful.

I think the question boils down to whether you can get faster growth of a scion by grafting to a seedling rootstock or grafting onto the top of a mature tree.

A secondary question for me is, in grafting onto a mature tree what placement factors result in the fastest growth.