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cristofre
Citruholic
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Joined: 09 Mar 2010
Posts: 200
Location: Clayton, Georgia USA zone 7B/8A

Posted: Thu 02 Jan, 2014 7:28 pm

Tom wrote:
cristofre, you make an excellent argument and defend it very well. However, the defense that something is not as bad so it should be ok doesn't really wash.


"Harm Reduction" is actually a well known philosophy, not something I just made up:

http://www.ihra.net/what-is-harm-reduction

Finding solutions to problems that cause the least harm is better than trading harm with just a different type of harm. Putting people in jail for using cannabis medicinally or recreationally causes more harm than the substance itself could ever cause.

Alcohol Prohibition in the USA was conceived specifically because of the perception that alcohol was ruining the country. Reality was that criminalizing a health issue made people have twice as much trouble as previously. Reduction of harm doesn't say "alcohol good" it says, alcohol can be bad, but making a person with a health problem into a criminal TOO doesn't accomplish anything.


Tom wrote:

There is no way to calculate the damage that alcohol, drugs and gambling has done to the American family and society as a whole. I still think we are in a death spiral and I don't believe there is any way to pull out of it.


Comparing these things to a benign natural substance that has no toxic dose makes no sense. The damage that smoking tobacco or eating greasy fried food every day includes 100's of thousands of deaths a year.
Still, we don't put smokers and eaters in jail for doing something that clearly is very dangerous.
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Nov 2008
Posts: 259
Location: Alabama [Central]

Posted: Thu 02 Jan, 2014 8:22 pm

You are very intelligent and I do agree with you more than you probably think. As far as harm reduction, I don't think we can get the good ole boys in Georgia and Alabama to give up their beer for dope and I still say we are in a downward spiral that we can't pull out of. It seems to me our society is failing.

I don't like the legislated mandate that I have to wear my seat belt but it would be stupid for me not to wear it. It still doesn't mean I like the law that makes not wearing a seat belt a ticketable offense.

More laws, more people, less freedoms. The majority isn't always right and it's getting scary. I sound just like my daddy long ago ! He actually said all change is bad. I laughed out loud and still do. I do have to say all change is not always good. He predicted I would agree with him before it was all over.

_________________
Tom in central Alabama
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mrtexas
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 02 Dec 2005
Posts: 1029
Location: 9a Missouri City,TX

Posted: Thu 02 Jan, 2014 10:19 pm

cristofre wrote:
Tom wrote:
cristofre, you make an excellent argument and defend it very well. However, the defense that something is not as bad so it should be ok doesn't really wash.


"Harm Reduction" is actually a well known philosophy, not something I just made up:

http://www.ihra.net/what-is-harm-reduction

Finding solutions to problems that cause the least harm is better than trading harm with just a different type of harm. Putting people in jail for using cannabis medicinally or recreationally causes more harm than the substance itself could ever cause.

Alcohol Prohibition in the USA was conceived specifically because of the perception that alcohol was ruining the country. Reality was that criminalizing a health issue made people have twice as much trouble as previously. Reduction of harm doesn't say "alcohol good" it says, alcohol can be bad, but making a person with a health problem into a criminal TOO doesn't accomplish anything.


Tom wrote:

There is no way to calculate the damage that alcohol, drugs and gambling has done to the American family and society as a whole. I still think we are in a death spiral and I don't believe there is any way to pull out of it.


Comparing these things to a benign natural substance that has no toxic dose makes no sense. The damage that smoking tobacco or eating greasy fried food every day includes 100's of thousands of deaths a year.
Still, we don't put smokers and eaters in jail for doing something that clearly is very dangerous.


I don't think cannabis is harmless. It has significantly bad health affects for the heavy user. Perhaps now that it is getting to be more legal there will be some unbiased research to identify the health risks. I don't believe most research so far on health affects have been unbiased. Studying the affects of an illegal "dangerous" "loco weed" drug I think skews the results to the bad.

There is so much strong feelings about cannabis. Tricky Dick classified it as bad as the opiates which is way over reacting, "cannabis is a Schedule I drug according to the Controlled Substances Act of 1970, which classified cannabis as having high potential for abuse, no medical use, and not safe to use without medical supervision."

Making it illegal in the first place was not a well thought out process.

"One source of tensions in the western and southwestern states was the influx of Mexicans to the US. Many Mexicans also smoked marijuana to relax after working in the fields.[17] Later in the 1920s, negative tensions grew between the small farms and the large farms that used cheaper Mexican labor. Shortly afterwards, the Great Depression came which increased tensions as jobs and resources became more scarce. Because of that, the passage of the initial laws is often described as a product of racism, yet use of hashish by near eastern immigrants were also cited, as well as the misuse of pharmaceutical hemp, and the laws conformed with other legislation that was being passed around the country. Mexico itself had passed prohibition in 1925, following the International Opium Convention"

Quotes from wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_history_of_cannabis_in_the_United_States
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GregBradley
Citruholic
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Joined: 20 Apr 2013
Posts: 28
Location: Upland, CA 91784

Posted: Thu 02 Jan, 2014 11:41 pm

I grew up in the 1960s in SoCal and lost a few friends in Vietnam but far more to drugs, mostly mariuana through doing stupid things while stoned.

I think Colorado has just made a big mistake.

A legal Marijuana dispensary moved in to the commercial/industrial complex near my business about 4 years ago. It was a disaster. Damage to cars, businesses, violent crime, theft, vandalism, etc. went through the roof. Several times their customers would walk up to the bushes in front of an office, unzip their pants and pee in the bushes in full view of the people inside the office. Three customers defecated in the parking lot, one in full view of a number of businesses and 20 feet from a busy 4 lane highway. Their customers started sleeping in cars in the parking lot waiting for them to open. There were armed guards in the parking lot.

If you executed all the employees and all the clients of that Marijuana dispensary, you would have been about 99.99% right. About once a month someone would comment that they saw a human being enter the "pot place". They would say "Wow, that person looks like they could be a legitimate customer". It was that rare. Some of their customers would come in to my business when the dispensary was closed and brag about how they were scamming the system. I trap the rats I find in my citrus grove in have-a-heart traps and take them up to the hills to live but the customers of the pot dispensaries do not deserve that courtesy.

Good luck Colorado, I think your done..........

A better plan would have been to increase the penalties for drug use, drug sales, etc. until it solved the problem. If that escalated to public torture of drug dealers, that would be better than legalizing marijuana. It seems to be a pattern lately that when some system is broken that we find a way to make it worse. It was only a few years ago and I'm still furious - can you tell? Very Happy
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Radoslav
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 453
Location: Slovak Republic

Posted: Fri 03 Jan, 2014 3:54 am

If you want to see the future, this film is very accurate vision:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy
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cristofre
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 09 Mar 2010
Posts: 200
Location: Clayton, Georgia USA zone 7B/8A

Posted: Fri 03 Jan, 2014 11:29 am

Radoslav wrote:
If you want to see the future, this film is very accurate vision:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy



I've seen this a couple of times. Good movie.

I do have more confidence in humanity than this film does though. lol
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cristofre
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 09 Mar 2010
Posts: 200
Location: Clayton, Georgia USA zone 7B/8A

Posted: Fri 03 Jan, 2014 12:07 pm

GregBradley wrote:


If you executed all the employees and all the clients of that Marijuana dispensary, you would have been about 99.99% right.


A better plan would have been to increase the penalties for drug use, drug sales, etc. until it solved the problem. If that escalated to public torture of drug dealers, that would be better than legalizing marijuana. It seems to be a pattern lately that when some system is broken that we find a way to make it worse. It was only a few years ago and I'm still furious - can you tell? Very Happy


We should execute all cigarette smokers too. Make tobacco smoking illegal.
Then you will be able to look out your window and see cigarette dealers in trench coats dealing the evil cancer sticks to your neighbors.

The cigarette gangs will roam the back allies, having shootouts over territory.
Customs agents will be stopping speed boats loaded with bales of tobacco from South America. We will build more prisons to make room for all the tobacco-heads, so they will stop peeing on our bushes.
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GregBradley
Citruholic
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Joined: 20 Apr 2013
Posts: 28
Location: Upland, CA 91784

Posted: Fri 03 Jan, 2014 1:51 pm

I don't think I translated my thoughts to my post very well since I still feel extremely violated by the "legal" dispensary several years later. It was a nightmare for all the legitimate businesses that were nearby.

Several businesses had problems keeping employees as they were afraid to come to work. I was forced to change my business hours as we could no longer have just one person in the office during the first and last hour that we were open. Even though they were only open for a year before the DEA finally closed them down, we lost several businesses that were replaced by businesses that aren't as pleasant. The owner of the business complex put it up for sale just to be rid of them.

I know there isn't an easy solution for the drug problem, but a legal dispensary creates other problems. From the experience of being near one for a short period, the owners are criminals and the customers are the dregs of society. I realize we need a better solution than we have, but I don't see their solution as positive.
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cristofre
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 09 Mar 2010
Posts: 200
Location: Clayton, Georgia USA zone 7B/8A

Posted: Fri 03 Jan, 2014 2:32 pm

GregBradley wrote:
I don't think I translated my thoughts to my post very well since I still feel extremely violated by the "legal" dispensary several years later. It was a nightmare for all the legitimate businesses Even though they were only open for a year before the DEA finally closed them down,



You were obviously correct that this particular dispensary should have been shut down.
If they couldn't follow regulations, local laws and be decent neighbors, then it's a good thing the DEA took them out.
I'm sure honest, law abiding dispensaries would agree- they don't want that kind of thing reflecting badly on THEIR businesses.
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Sylvain
Site Admin
Site Admin


Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 790
Location: Bergerac, France.

Posted: Fri 03 Jan, 2014 5:05 pm

Looking from outside, it is very astonishing. We have always been told that people from Colorado are extreme right wing rednecks and we learn that the majority voted for the legalization of marijuana!
We should better wait that kind of thing from California.

Never trust preconceived ideas!
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GregMartin
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 12 Jan 2011
Posts: 268
Location: southern Maine, zone 5/6

Posted: Fri 03 Jan, 2014 9:11 pm

Radoslav wrote:
If you want to see the future, this film is very accurate vision:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy


Laughing Shocked Laughing
That's what I'm doing wrong with my citrus....I should be using Brawndo instead of water for them. Brawndo has what plants crave! It's got electrolytes. Can't believe I was using water, like what's in toilets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1fKzw05Q5A

(I like this movie too much...thanks for mentioning it Radoslav)
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GregBradley
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 20 Apr 2013
Posts: 28
Location: Upland, CA 91784

Posted: Sat 04 Jan, 2014 1:25 pm

Sylvain wrote:
Looking from outside, it is very astonishing. We have always been told that people from Colorado are extreme right wing rednecks and we learn that the majority voted for the legalization of marijuana!
We should better wait that kind of thing from California.

Never trust preconceived ideas!

My grandfather settled in Colorado in 1914 and most of my family still lives there. I can guarantee you that none of them voted for legalization.
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Millet
Citruholic
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Joined: 13 Nov 2005
Posts: 6657
Location: Colorado

Posted: Sat 04 Jan, 2014 1:46 pm

Poor Colorado. Over the last 5 - 8 years, Colorado has been inundated by people from California moving to Colorado, causing our state to change from a red state to a purple state. Most Coloradans wish the liberals would stay on the left coast, and leave us alone... - Millet
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GregBradley
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 20 Apr 2013
Posts: 28
Location: Upland, CA 91784

Posted: Sat 04 Jan, 2014 2:24 pm

Millet,
I think most long term Californians feel the same way. My fathers side of the family settled here in 1889, when this was a citrus growing area. I hardly even know anyone that is liberal. During the last election, there was one house near me with a non-conservative campaign sign.

California seemed to attract the liberal wackos from everywhere else and became liberal. Now Colorado is getting the same thing. My relatives in Montana and Utah feel the same way. When I used to spend half the year in the Rockies, I learned to keep Utah plates on my car. I would fly to my house in Utah and travel from there.

I'd like to see the left coast liberals moved left of the left coast, preferably far enough that they can't swim back.
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GregMartin
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 12 Jan 2011
Posts: 268
Location: southern Maine, zone 5/6

Posted: Sat 04 Jan, 2014 2:36 pm

When I was going to grad school at CSM 20 years ago people were bemoaning the influx of Californians into Colorado. Here in Maine and in bordering New Hampshire we complain about the influx from Massachusetts. Maine was already net left, but NH is now starting to turn fairly purple as well...shocking to watch.
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