Citrus Growers Forum

JoeReal · Posted: Thu 11 Sep, 2008 4:35 pm

bastrees wrote:

Joe, Your plans for the property sound like they have been a subject of much thought over many years! It sounds like a lifetime dream come true, and I hope everything works to your advantage. I am so excited for you! It is good to hear from you again. Barbara

Now, how to transplant a 80-something in one tree.... I know that if it can be done, you will do it! And with pictures!

Thanks Barbara! We will be keeping our primary residence. So the 85-n-1 citrus may stop at 100-n-1 citrus tree when the new property gets started. With "unlimited" space for a lot bigger tree, I may graft the entire UCR budwood available on the new bigger tree, but by then, I hope the UCR CCPP is not severely quarantined from the encroachment of asian psyllids. But it would be a brand new start which I like to assemble. I already have a 12-n-1 mandarin tree in the pot as one of the specimens that will be planted in whereever acre lot we would end up buying.

JoeReal · Posted: Thu 11 Sep, 2008 4:37 pm

harveyc wrote:

Don't be stubborn, Joe. Do the tests, they are cheap and help you know what to deal with before you discover the problems later on. Speaking from EXPERIENCE! A soil and water test combined will only set you back about $100, IIRC.

I also think you're going to need more water than what you'll be capturing from the skies (especially in years like 2008).

I wish I had treated my entire chestnut orchard with sulfuric acid before I planted it. Most of it was okay but even within 4 acres the soil varies quite a bit and trees in one area are week.

Will surely do that Harvey! Remember, I am growing blueberries in alkaline sodic soil here.

Have you tried supplementing your problem chestnuts with soil sulfur? The soil sulfur works slow, but the effects are long lasting and gentler compared to sulfuric acid.

JoeReal · Posted: Thu 11 Sep, 2008 4:40 pm

I am also planning to make my own Terra Pretta soil. Will have to design a build a solar powered charcoal maker to convert the grass clippings and other yard waste into charcoal and condition the soil with those. Through time it should help improve soil properties. I've built solar concentrators for BBQ grill while in college, also for roasting coffee beans and producing steam water.

eyeckr · Posted: Thu 11 Sep, 2008 6:05 pm

Glad to hear that you and your family are doing well. It gets a little quiet sometimes on the forum without your posts. Sounds like a great deal on the house. I can only imagine what your yard will look like in a few years. Even though I definitely could use more land I hate to think of starting from scratch again replanting and regrafting everything. Good luck with the move and congrats to your wife!

dauben · Posted: Fri 12 Sep, 2008 12:45 am

JoeReal wrote:

The main house will have plenty of solar panels. Solar panels will come down cheaply within 2 to 3 years, and even without rebates, the price of electricity that it will save us on a monthly basis will be bigger than the amortized payments, so it will be feasible. Solar Panels will help cool the house during summer and I plan to produce as much energy as I can. And I will also have earth based cooling and heating driven by fans instead of heaters and compressors. I will also have solar heaters built by myself and installed in the roof.

I'm thinking about wind power at the place I'm looking at. There has been a nice steady breeze each time I've been there. I'd prefer to have a decorative wind feature though even if it isn't as efficient. I nice rustic windmill looks a lot nicer than the modern whirly birds.

Phillip

dauben · Posted: Fri 12 Sep, 2008 12:50 am

harveyc wrote:

Don't be stubborn, Joe. Do the tests, they are cheap and help you know what to deal with before you discover the problems later on. Speaking from EXPERIENCE! A soil and water test combined will only set you back about $100, IIRC.

I'm going to test the well water at the place I'm looking at for nitrates. With a new baby on the way, I don't want Blue Baby Disease from the water. I'm fortunate though that the runoff from an entire mountain with an open space easement drains to a seepage pond on the property I'm looking at. I hope that I have decent water quality, but who knows. The soils are a "clayey loam" from NRCS.

Phillip

harveyc · Posted: Fri 12 Sep, 2008 4:28 am

JoeReal wrote:

Have you tried supplementing your problem chestnuts with soil sulfur? The soil sulfur works slow, but the effects are long lasting and gentler compared to sulfuric acid.

Joe, I haven't tried mineral sulfur since it is so slow. What I have used mostly is NpHuric, a petroleum byproduct which is 12%N and 49%S in active form I inject it in my irrigation water but I have to do it slowly to avoid sudden changes. There are commercial applicators that will inject sulfuric acid but not after the orchard is planted. Down about 3 feet the pH gets up to about 7.9 in the problem area of my orchard and I'd like it to be below 6.5. I had taken a soil test before planting but did not have any idea that the small 4 acre portion of my property was so variable until later when I noticed the difference in tree growth. The NRCS soil maps do not show these differences, by the way. The soil data is very valuable but still not detailed enough.

I hope this works out for you, Joe, as I'd really like to see what you can do with it.

By the way, sorry for missing the party. I thought I might be able to squeeze it in between two other events that day but very little went as planned. Typical these days, it seems.

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Harvey

JoeReal · Posted: Fri 12 Sep, 2008 12:14 pm

eyeckr wrote:

Glad to hear that you and your family are doing well. It gets a little quiet sometimes on the forum without your posts. Sounds like a great deal on the house. I can only imagine what your yard will look like in a few years. Even though I definitely could use more land I hate to think of starting from scratch again replanting and regrafting everything. Good luck with the move and congrats to your wife!

Hey, thanks Eyeckr! I also congratulate you, for finishing your big projects! Mine is just about to begin.

JoeReal · Posted: Fri 12 Sep, 2008 12:15 pm

dauben wrote:

I'm thinking about wind power at the place I'm looking at. There has been a nice steady breeze each time I've been there. I'd prefer to have a decorative wind feature though even if it isn't as efficient. I nice rustic windmill looks a lot nicer than the modern whirly birds.

Phillip

Here you go Phillip! Kindly wait for these beauties:

The most innovative windmill that I have ever come across. The blade turns parallel to the wind, so it cut downs noises significantly. It uses the venturi effect as the wheel turns the small generator, and able to get 40% more power from the wind compared to the same diameter noisy propeller blades. Can capture energy even at lower windspeed than required by propeller blades. Very decorative and can be installed on rooftops, walkways and the birds avoid them. Developed in H o l land, being sold already, and I hope it comes to the US soon.

Joe

Pretty in a row.

close-up:

Sorry, I forgot the link to specific page, but it is on LiveScience web site.

From H o l land, the country famous for its windmills, comes a new design for home wind power. Looking like an eggbeater, it spins quieter and at lower wind speeds than a lot of traditional propeller-type turbines.

It's now standard for big wind turbines to have propeller blades. Much of the turning force is generated at the tips, which slice perpendicularly through the air, causing a swooshing noise that some residents nearby have said they find unnerving.

By contrast, the so-called Energy Ball, sold by Dutch-based Home Energy International, has rotors bent around in a ball shape so that they primarily move parallel to the wind. This generates less noise.

"A small wind turbine has to be silent, otherwise it will be annoying to the community," said Erik Aurik, Home Energy's marketing manager.

The noise from an Energy Ball is always less than the sound of the wind, Aurik told LiveScience. And what's more, the device continues to work even when the wind speed dips down to as slow as 4.5 mph (2 meters per second), whereas the average turbine needs roughly twice that wind speed to turn.

Venturi effect
This is not the first wind turbine to resemble an egg-beater. The Darrieus wind turbine has a similar shape and has been around for almost 80 years.

What's different with the Energy Ball is that it has a horizontal axis, not a vertical one. And it uses a different kind of physics, called the Venturi effect.

The Venturi effect is characterized by a low pressure that occurs when a flow of air or liquid speeds up as it is constricted. Some perfume bottles use the Venturi effect to suck up perfume into the spray nozzle.

The Energy Ball's design constricts the wind, thereby causing the pressure to drop inside the ball. This sucks in air flowing around the ball and helps turn the rotor blades.

Because of this sucking action, Venturi-based turbines use more of the wind and can therefore be 40 percent more efficient than a propeller-style turbine of the same diameter, according to research by Technical University of Delft in Holland.

Decorative windmills

Energy Balls currently are sold in sizes of either 1 meter or 2 meters in diameter. They can be installed on a pole or a flat roof in as few as four hours, Aurik said.

In places where the wind is relatively strong blowing 15 mph, or 7 meters per second, on average a 1-meter ball can generate up to 500 kilowatt-hours per year, while the 2-meter ball can supply 1,750 kilowatt-hours per year. The typical U.S. household uses 11,000 kilowatt-hours per year, so additional electricity will have to come from somewhere.

However, these are optimum values that assume the small turbine is mounted at least 40 feet (12 meters) above the ground and is free from surrounding trees and buildings that block the wind.

The cost of the Energy Ball is between $3,500 and $7,000, not including installation.

"There is a lot of interest worldwide," Aurik said. "Everybody likes the design. It looks like an art piece."

JoeReal · Posted: Fri 12 Sep, 2008 12:24 pm

dauben wrote:

With a new baby on the way, ....
Phillip

Congratulations! I've been gone really too long!

Skeeter · Posted: Fri 12 Sep, 2008 1:58 pm

Great to see you back Joe-- congratulations to your wife and your son--I hope he does well in college. I know you will love having a couple acres to play with-- I really hope you get it.

You inspired me to get back into wine making last year with the blueberries--I now have 5 batches working--2 batches of Blueberry, fig, blackberry and muscadine-- I even made a wine chiller out of an old freezer for fermenting and storing my wine. I wish I could send you a bottle of the blueberry--it is awesome! If you are ever in the area--stop by and pick one up.

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Skeet

harveyc · Posted: Fri 12 Sep, 2008 3:12 pm

JoeReal wrote:

The most innovative windmill that I have ever come across. The blade turns parallel to the wind, so it cut downs noises significantly. It uses the venturi effect as the wheel turns the small generator, and able to get 40% more power from the wind compared to the same diameter noisy propeller blades. Can capture energy even at lower windspeed than required by propeller blades. Very decorative and can be installed on rooftops, walkways and the birds avoid them. Developed in H o l land, being sold already, and I hope it comes to the US soon.

Joe

Sorry, I forgot the link to specific page, but it is on LiveScience web site.

Here it is: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26645057/
Seems like you'd need many of these to get signficant power savings/benefits. $3,500-$7,000 per unit producing 1,750kwh in a hear for the largest in a 15mph area.

This article says that "bigger is better" http://www.livescience.com/environment/071015-small-wind.html

You could go low-cost and make your own like this guy: http://ted-baer.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=23&Itemid=1

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Harvey

JoeReal · Posted: Fri 12 Sep, 2008 6:29 pm

harveyc wrote:

Here it is: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26645057/
Seems like you'd need many of these to get signficant power savings/benefits. $3,500-$7,000 per unit producing 1,750kwh in a hear for the largest in a 15mph area.

This article says that "bigger is better" http://www.livescience.com/environment/071015-small-wind.html

You could go low-cost and make your own like this guy: http://ted-baer.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=23&Itemid=1

if mass produced, the price could dramatically go down, and with rebates, it is cheaper than solar at the moment.

Bigger is usually better, due to economies of scale, but noisier too. I think the egg beater got my mind because it truly is a very ingenuous and efficient windmill that has come in after a very long time. It is also scalable, while scaling up, the noise is still softer than the wind gusts passing your ears. It is an excellent marvel for me. It can be modified further to cut down costs, so bigger one can be used.

I'd like to make my own too, but our area here doesn't have reliable winds. I've designed a hybrid Savonius shaft that is shaped to take advantage of the torque of the wind force, and have used kite materials for the mast, and it was very efficient, but very noisy. It won local award in one of the competition in Agricultural Engineering way back in college, and I only used it to pump water from a deep well.

dauben · Posted: Sun 14 Sep, 2008 3:41 am

JoeReal wrote:

Here you go Phillip! Kindly wait for these beauties:

The most innovative windmill that I have ever come across. The blade turns parallel to the wind, so it cut downs noises significantly. It uses the venturi effect as the wheel turns the small generator, and able to get 40% more power from the wind compared to the same diameter noisy propeller blades. Can capture energy even at lower windspeed than required by propeller blades. Very decorative and can be installed on rooftops, walkways and the birds avoid them. Developed in H o l land, being sold already, and I hope it comes to the US soon.

Joe

Pretty interesting. I found the link to their home page below:
http://www.home-energy.com/

I also like the thought of using geothermal heating and cooling if I end up with a place with some land. Where I'm looking at buying in Ramona, it tends to get warmer in the summer and cooler in the winter. It'll be nice not to have to worry as much about keeping the air/heat on.

Phillip[/quote]

justjoan · Posted: Tue 16 Sep, 2008 5:29 pm

I will just sneak in and say, happy you are back and hope all goes well for you and your family and the new home! Very Happy

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