Citrus Growers Forum

Laaz · Posted: Wed 20 Jun, 2007 10:17 pm

Ned I stumbled on this by chance two years ago.

I had a bunch of key lime seedlings with no where to put them... I finally decided to put them in the vegetable garden for the time being. Most were in full sun out of the way, but two were overgrown by tomato plants. I just let them go & didn't pay any attention to them. In late August my wife was yelling at me to do something with my damn plants with all the thorns coming out of the tomato's... I went out to see what she was talking about, and the two key limes were 4ft tall coming out from under the tomato plants. The other in full sun were still 8" little trees... I have used this method with success ever since...

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Millet · Posted: Thu 21 Jun, 2007 12:36 am

To the second and third best citrus growers on this form, that is my two dear friends Joe and Laaz, from your good and lasting friend. I would like to point out to both of you I said that citrus always grow better when the tree is located in PARTIAL shade, not in shade. You can read all about this phenomenon in The Citrus Industry Volume-1 and also in the Biology of Citrus by Spiegel and Gold Schmidt. Ohtobeincalifornia's tree will not be growing in shade by a long shot, as her room has great windows. Ned I would say over watering almost never kills citrus trees. It is not the water that kills them it is the lack of oxygen to the root system that kills them. If your seedlings are growing in a rapidly draining soil, that is highly aerated, you can water all you like. In my 4:1 CHC Chip/Peat mix I can water the containers every day, or even three times a day if I wish and never have a problem as the CHC/Peat mix has excellent drainage, therefore retains plenty of oxygen. Ohtobeincalifornia, I am currently growing 127 citrus trees with 124 of them in containers. I have found if you keep the growth medium in the containers at 64F or higher during the winter, your trees will not experience leaf drop (WLD) that is so commonly experienced by new growers. 55.4F degrees is absolute zero for citrus roots. If your tree is in front of a southern window receiving direct winter sunlight, all or most of the day, the surface of the leaves can reach temperatures of 115+, and if the tree's root system is at or near 55.4F the root system cannot send water to the foliage to cool them, and a large leaf drop normally occurs. Anyway, very glad to have you as a member. In a year you will probably be this forum's second best grower, and Joe and Laaz will drop to numbers 3 and 4. Take care. - Millet

Junglekeeper · Posted: Thu 21 Jun, 2007 12:58 am

The picture of Laaz's Chinotto showing the difference in growth between sun and shade is quite interesting. My trees are grown behind large windows with southern and eastern exposure year-round. Even though they receive much light they have the look of the portion of Laaz's tree that was grown in shade - long internodes. The growth is by no means weak but it doesn't have the nice dense foliage.

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Indoor Grower

trl2112 · Joined: 22 Jan 2007 Posts: 3 Location: Northern IL Z5

Sally,

Thats a nice tree. Was it purchased at Jamaican Gardens? I saw one very similar to it there a few weeks ago. I do not have much advice other than read, read, read. Good luck!

ohtobeincalifornia · Joined: 19 Jun 2007 Posts: 3 Location: chicago

Yes Trl2122 it was from Jamaica Gardens. It's a small world! I live in Libertyville.

Sally

Skeeter · Posted: Sun 24 Jun, 2007 11:46 am

Laaz wrote:

Heres a quick reference... Flying dragon seedlings planted the same day last fall. The container on the right I keep in the shade on the north side of my house. The pot on the left is kept in direct sun. As you see the plants kept in shade are taller & stretching to find the light. I have done this on purpose to try & get them to budding size quicker with more budding spots on them...

My Chinotto...

I am just catching up on some of the post from this week-- I too have found that my seedlings are doing better since I put them under a shade cloth. They were doing fine in full sun until the temps started getting into the 80's-- At first I thought the problem was soil temp due to the black pots, so I planted the pots in the ground to keep them cool-- I was still getting some sunburned leaves, so I put a shade cloth over them. They are doing much better now.

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Skeet

dauben · Posted: Sun 24 Jun, 2007 1:52 pm

Ned wrote:

This flies in the face of what I have always thought (and told others) about citrus. Too much water causes root rot! In this situation that simply is not the case. I now grow all of my rootstock in this area. I am tempted to sit a grafted tree there to see what happens. I have surmised that the heavy watering may be causing the oxygen level to remain high in the medium, through a flushing action. Anyone have any idea what is going on here?

I hasten to add, no one should commence overwatering their citrus based of these observations. I still regulate the water on all of my other citrus taking care not to over, or under, water.

Ned

Ned,
What is the rootstock you are growing that got overwatered? I've noticed that my sour orange rootstock doesn't seem to mind being overwatered as much as my flying dragon rootstock (the seeds you sent to me at the beginning of the year (Thanks again)). Maybe the type of rootstock is the determining factor?

Phillip

Millet · Posted: Sun 24 Jun, 2007 8:02 pm

Ned, I doubt that the seedlings are getting the required Oxygen from the water, as the O2 level in water is very low.

Very cold fresh water can hold up to 0.0014% (14 PPM or 14 mglL) dissolved oxygen.

Fresh water at room temperature can only hold about 0.0008% (8 PPM or 8 mglL) dissolved oxygen.

Fresh water at 86°F holds about 0.0005% (5 PPM or 5 mglL) dissolved oxygen.

Further, some of the dissolved oxygen is tied up because of another very important function that it performs. The oxygen changes the electrical charges in the water and the electrical charges in the nutrients, which then allows the roots to extract water and nutrients with much less energy. Therefore oxygen directly from irrigation water is only about 1% of the plants needs, with out additional "soil" oxygen the roots will soon brown and become sick. Irrigation water is only a minor source of root oxygen. For this reason, the roots need as much oxygen as they can get, and the vast majority comes from the air within a porous soil that is quick draining. This is why over watering is a much larger problem for container trees six months or a year after being transplanted when the ingredients in the growth medium have started to degrade and the potting mix has settled and compacted. - Millet