Darkman "I believe that was my point or at least that is what I was trying to say."


Yeah, sometimes I can be somewhat dense.

Unfortunately, organic farming, due to its heavy requirement of human labor vs.small production, will never be able feed the world's 7 billion people three meals per day. Let alone the large quantities of organic matter that must be incorporated into the soil every acre, to supply nutrition for the next crop. Organic would be great, but it is not going to happen.- Millet (340 ABo-)

I'm affraid that I'm not that good in english to say something more as I could do....


Well , Millet I don't agree with you , it is possible to do it , once you don't put togheter all the numbers.

For example , here in Romania , small farmers are still using cow manure for getting good crops.

I personally know somenone who has 200 cows and 215278 ft2 land and he is using the cow manure for that land. You may say that is not enough , maybe , well it is .

When I saw "Jurassic Park" probably the first of them , someone said that ..."Life will find a way"

quote : "And if we could only step aside and trust in nature, life will find a way."


I also know that those who manufacture fertilizers are in a special need of selling their goods , oil(petrol) based goods as many of them are chemicals and not cow manure. I was in Greece for a couple of years and went to a small village where after the olives where collected I added some NPK fertilisers arround the tree. At that point I didn't thought why the governement was giving for free that bag of NPK . And in the mean time , all the manure from his yard was thrown at garbage containers. Maybe he was lazy or was more comfortable for him , of course , no smell - no dirt - no intense labor.

And since we are at this point - intense labor- .... I don't think that there is much difference between organic and industrial crops.

well I must agree with you on one thing , NOW it is maybe too late , but the earth can sustain much more people than 7 billion if we all WORK our lands in the spirit of nature.

Synthesized fertilisers will be a pest in the future since they are not that easily absorbed by the soil like manure does. Water from the rivers will be undrinkable...and so on.

I see this problem in this way ... "How to overcome laziness and do our job"

few ways:

Realise it! + Make up your mind! and "life will find a way"

Daniel

Daniel, it would take billions and billions and billions and even many more billions of cows to generate enough fertilizer to fertilize even a fraction of the amount of land it would take to organically feed the worlds population. To be efficient it requires 18 tons of manure per acre. The human labor alone to grow organic is a real killer. Daniel, at this point lets just agree to disagree. Have a nice day. BTW I seen on the TV the amount of snow you guys received in Romania---WOW. - Millet (339 ABo-)

It is true about the snow , and I live up north , where cold has got to -30C for several night on a row. But we are used to this , maybe people in the south-east regions are not

Well , again with numbers.....billions +billions+billions ...does this make you believe that is worthless to try to even bother to consider organic crops.

You also said "big - quality - crops" , and I can assure you that in an apple from an organic orchads who only weights 100gr are as much and even more vitamines that in one red-gigantic-industrial crop apple. It's just an illusion that "more is better" since if you eat a small 100gr apple ypu will have the same benefit as the big one does.

My concern now is that by using so much genetics and pest control chemicals , bees are starting to have troubles on getting every tree polinated and maybe we will lost them in the future.

Then we can see what went wrong , but maybe it will be too late.


And one more .....is it bad for you to try to go back to the origins. Is it hard for everyone to try at least once to do organic farming , as an improvement to their health for family and their kids.

Daniel

Nitrogen is nitrogen no matter what the source. The plant uses it in the same manner, whether from organic or man made...

Daniel, unfortunately your statement....."and I can assure you that in an apple from an organic orchads who only weights 100gr are as much and even more vitamines that in one red-gigantic-industrial crop apple" is just not the case.

The USDA has debunked that "theory" many, many times. An apple, or any other plant, cannot tell the difference between organic nutrients, or standard nutrients. What the roots of the apple, in this case, absorbs is the exact same with either standard or organic. All things being equal you will get the same quality apple. Anyway, this post has gone on way to long. This will be my last post. Have a great week-end. - Millet (399 ABo-)

[quote="cristofre"]I think the main thing that convinces me that "organic" is the way to go is that is the way NATURE does it. Forests grow lush and full with fruit hanging on vines and branches, and nobody fertilizes, nobody applies insecticides, nobody puts roundup on "weeds". [quote]

While I appreciate your convictions I do not think you are looking at this realistically. When was the last time you went into a forest and found a fruiting tree that was covered in fruit or a vine that had fruit you could reach without climbing a tree. Let's just say you did find them and they are an unimproved variety, I dare say that you would not be impressed with the quality of the fruit. It would be seedy for one and probably much smaller and lees sweet or flavorful than what you are accustom to. I've eaten wild fruits in the woods and I never had the desire to propagate the fruit so I could have it at home. I'm not saying it tasted bad it just isn't as good as what you find in a cultivated environment. I employ many “organic” techniques BUT I will never be a certified organic gardener. It just isn't practical or economical. That forest tree that does produce a large quantity of fruit does so for one reason and it isn't to supply mankind with food. It is to survive and propagate. Between the animals, birds, bugs, weather etc.... it will be lucky to supply the forest with a few of its kind over the course of its life. In fact if you were to harvest the fruit you would be a serious threat to the purpose of the tree. It ripens many fruit because it know that bugs, disease and animals will get many of the fruit. In fact it is counting on it to scatter it seeds. I will continue to use a blend of both to cultivate my small part of this world.

>>>>While I appreciate your convictions I do not think you are looking at this realistically. When was the last time you went into a forest and found a fruiting tree that was covered in fruit or a vine that had fruit you could reach without climbing a tree. >>>>>

Darkman:

Actually, the last few years I have been getting quarts of persimmons from a wild tree in my front yard, more than I could use. I do agree, this is a bit random chance though.

Yes, you are right, if left to its own devices, a forest would be somewhat random and not necessarily produce "human quality" food.

Obviously, this takes time and is not going to take over the function of the family garden, a combination of methods, like you said, is the key to the best production, but lowering one's "carbon footprint"at the same time.

This is where direction and planning comes in.
.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_gardening

For instance, You plant the tree varieties you want, plus understory plants that supply other foods, nutrition for the food plants,etc.

This is somewhat akin to woodlot management, but with the aim of directing succession of the various species for food production, rather than lumber, etc. You manage it so that there is enough of each species to supply you and the animals with food (then they don't eat it all)


There are "food forests" 10's to 100's of years old that are currently in use, so it isn't "hippy smoke and mirrors" nonsense, but valid agricultural techniques.

I personally have used standard "row gardening" all my life, but am slowly adding new techniques, like those above, to make it cheaper, less work, less monetary input in general, and of course, to make the food healthier.