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Brew your own compost tea to control diseases!
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JoeReal Site Admin
Joined: 16 Nov 2005 Posts: 4726 Location: Davis, California
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Posted: Wed 03 Oct, 2007 6:12 am |
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Steve Citruholic
Joined: 10 Sep 2007 Posts: 253 Location: Southern Germany
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Posted: Wed 03 Oct, 2007 9:18 am |
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Well, brewing compost by air-blubbers
Sorry, but I often thought to be mad, but that's realy funny.
I do not use compost, because fungal spores, like Phytophthora, won't be killed by blubbering that compost stew! So I won't use it, because most fungal spores are very resistant, so I do not want to use it.
But I spray my plants. I use: Beer!
Yes, you read it: Beer
I often go around to several bartenders, and pub-owners. They know my and I get the left overs. Also the 'sludge beer' what's dripping out of the barrel conected tapping cock, or the first stream, which should not given to the guest, will be saved in special glases, and saved for me.
So also what's left in the glasses of the guests will be saved for me, and I get it, for free.
But if you want to try, you can simply use any beer you can get. German beers are favorite, because having a purification law, only containing malt, hop and water, and some special brewmasters yeast.
I prefer strong beers and the typical 'Pilsener' brew, this light, but very high hop containing beer do fine.
I use such beer, because the carbonoxide in the beer is missing in the left-overs, so the beer will be very good sprayable. If you use fresh beer, fill it in a bottle and shake or stir it well, to remove the carbon oxide from the liquid, and now you can store it cold and dark for about two month.
I mix one quarter-gallon beer with one gallon of water annd spray it onto the leaves.
My plants like it. The vitamines of the yeast, the phytohormones of the hop, the minerals and aminoacids from the malt work like a cure for the plant. The hormones stimulate the plant, the minerals, aminoacids and vitamins are readily taken up for the leaves.
So that's for me much better than compost tea. So the gardner will having a beer, why not his plants, too?
So my plants having a beer, in spring and in fall, and if I feel so, also in good summer nights.
And they like it, I think.
And beer is brewed, with temperatures above any critical limit, and so harmfull fungal spores died by temperature and alcohol content, so it's free and only the benefical microorganisms of the yeast survive, and the micronutrients, vitamines and minerals survive.... So it's a very benefical source for health and extra nutrition.
So I spend my plants beer! And you? _________________ Eerh, hmm, uuuh, oooh, just guessing |
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JoeReal Site Admin
Joined: 16 Nov 2005 Posts: 4726 Location: Davis, California
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Posted: Wed 03 Oct, 2007 2:35 pm |
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Over here, where phytophtora is damaging avocado and citrus orchards, composted manure is recommended by UC to kill off the pathogens. There are many beneficial microbes in the composted steer manure to kill off many pathogens. |
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JoeReal Site Admin
Joined: 16 Nov 2005 Posts: 4726 Location: Davis, California
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Posted: Wed 03 Oct, 2007 3:40 pm |
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Steve Citruholic
Joined: 10 Sep 2007 Posts: 253 Location: Southern Germany
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Posted: Wed 03 Oct, 2007 8:45 pm |
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Joe,
if you want to try, well, you can use it.
I just wanted to give my doupts.
Because there are many long term studies about some 'effective microorganisms' here in Germany and Asia. It's nothing else, as a homemade silage, and anarobic decomposing of green stuff, which should be more benefical than normal compost....
But compareable studies are simply missing, and those existing simply indicate, that common compost is same effective than those 'effective microorganism mud'.... But here belives will crash head on head...
So if someone will try compost tea, well, he can do.
But reading your PDF files, it's indicating that the compost tea will help against some fungal infections, but: The effects are not simply given, the are not that steady as for other solutions and the effects shown will differ from basic compost dressing to another compost dressing.
Also: The most PDFs simly tell about compost as fertilizer, and not about compost tea against fungal diseases or how benefical those 'brews' are for the plant.
So I can agree: Organic fertilisation is very benefical four our environment, and the expanding use in biodynamic agriculture is very good for us all.
But: Compare studies of the effects of 'compost tea' to algae extract sprays, and other spray methodes are simply missing.
So long term studies about compost tea are missing, and doubts must be allowed.
So in my opinion: Be carefull, from which compost you brew your compost tea. Because doubts about containing spores of some fungal pathogens in such self made 'brews' are well in my mind, all the time when I read such abstracts about something with extraordinary 'biological power'.
Undisputed: Compost is benefical, but I just express my doubts about 'compost tea', as the effects of this spray is not realy well observed and studied.
Undisputed: Other stuff, like my preffered beer spray are also not realy observed in studies or long term examinations, but from the experience of many orchid gardners and orangerie gardeners I tried and found it, for my culture not harmfull for citrus, and my subjective guess is: WEll, the plant do well with it.
So evenly undisputed: If you use compost tea, and found it also promising, well, use it and feel free to talk about your experiences.
I simply want to express my doubts about, and doubts are the basic of discussion.
And discussion simply express the different belief of the "expressionist", and often there is no black or white, not left or right, not wrong or right.... often both ways exhibit a possibility, but the discussion about both ways is very interssting and some kind of knowledge exchange.
So, I read about compost tea, have doubts and provided my own knowledge of another way... _________________ Eerh, hmm, uuuh, oooh, just guessing |
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JoeReal Site Admin
Joined: 16 Nov 2005 Posts: 4726 Location: Davis, California
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Posted: Wed 03 Oct, 2007 8:57 pm |
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Good exchange. I may try the beer in one of the science projects of some kids.
The major drawback of beer when applied on citruses is that it would surely attract tremendous amount of snails and slugs which in turn will eat the citrus leaves.
We use beer as bait to attract snails and slugs into sunken pan that they will drown or cannot climb out after falling in. Snails and slugs are a big problem with citruses.
But I am more of a wine drinker rather than beer drinker, so any unopened beer left behind by guests during the party, I'd use them as snail and slug bait for my traps.
I am a wine maker, makes about 80 to 100 gallons of wine of various fruits each year. Sometimes I have spent mush or pomace that I experiment with plants, and it sickened citruses and my bananas, while others are okay with it. Particularly anything with yeasts in them seem to damage the lawn and the plants that I water it on.
I will try to spray the beer when it is very dry and the slugs and snails are hibernating. |
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Skeeter Moderator
Joined: 23 Jul 2006 Posts: 2218 Location: Pensacola, FL zone 9
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Posted: Thu 04 Oct, 2007 1:11 am |
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While must and sludge from making beer and wine would have active yeast, actually finished beer and wine should have very little if any whole yeast cells. It may contain some vitamins and carbohydrates, and it should be relatively sterile. _________________ Skeet
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JoeReal Site Admin
Joined: 16 Nov 2005 Posts: 4726 Location: Davis, California
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Posted: Thu 04 Oct, 2007 1:40 am |
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It depends if you have very good filtration and you use it properly.
Wine with ABV of 10.8% is the empirical biological limit that has been found out to kill off 99.999% of pathogens in a sealed container.
Beer will often have ABV of less than the biological limit, and can easily be spoiled or contaminated than wine. Thus wine with ABV more than the biological limit are a lot more stable than those with less than that.
The trick to making good wine even if your kitchen is less than sterile, is to achieve the biological ABV limit in the shortest time possible.
Technically, the must that has just been fermented is called beer.
Different yeasts have different ABV tolerance at various temperature. The higher the temperature, the lower is the tolerance of yeast to alcohol.
When the ABV is beyond the tolerance of yeast, the yeast becomes inactive and settle at the bottom. Later than that, the yeasts could die or go into lysis, that is why you rack off the wine before the yeast go into lysis and give off-flavors to the wine. Some yeasts could linger in the wine, inactive or not. Filtering the wine with less than 1 micron filters will often yeast-free wine. |
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Steve Citruholic
Joined: 10 Sep 2007 Posts: 253 Location: Southern Germany
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Posted: Thu 04 Oct, 2007 10:00 pm |
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Skeeter wrote: | While must and sludge from making beer and wine would have active yeast, actually finished beer and wine should have very little if any whole yeast cells. It may contain some vitamins and carbohydrates, and it should be relatively sterile. |
Well, I agree with Joe,
the yeast, especially the yeast for beer, will get much quicker inactive, than many wine yeast varieties. For example: Portwine strains can be active up to 18 Percent of alcohol before getting inactive. Common wine yeasts usually will only go upp to 11 to 14 Percent. Several Bordeaux strains do not tolerate alcohol levels above 12 Percent, but the famous Malaga yeast will go up to 15 and 16 Percent.
So most beer yeast won't survive beer with more than 8 Percent Alcohol, and are relative sensitive yeast strains, and those strains differ from those used in wine making. So a baker yeast is different from a beer brewer yeast and both are different from the strains of wine makers yeast.
Some wine makers will try spontanous fermentation, but usually most wine makers use their favorite yeast strains, and many of them are kept like a family treasure.
But making beer is different from making wine. Beer will usually have to different yeast cultures: Upper fermantation yeast and bottom fermentation yeast.
In bavaria usually surface or upper fermantation yeast strains are used, and in areas more north of the river Main usually bottom fermantation yeast strains are used.
Surface strains usually tolerate more alcohol than the bottom fermantation strains, so that's why some bavarian beers have double the amount of alcohol of a typical 'Pilsener' type beer.
The strongest beer of Germany are the so called "Eisbock" type (translation Ice-ram) The Bock type beer is usually a strong beer during the Chamfering time before eastern, as a substitute for meat, established by the bavarian monks, also the strong x-mas Bock beer or the October-Feast Bock are famous. But all bocks are topped by the Eisbock.
Here a very strong x-mas Bock beer was accidenticaly frozen, and the inner core wasn't frozen in the barrel, so a beer extract, high in alcohol was discovered... And in the same way those Eisbock type beers are still produced, because even in Eibock types with alcohol levels of more than 10 Percent the yeast will not tolerate such high levels of alcohol during the main brew process.
So the strong bock type beer with abount 7 up to 8 Percent alcohol will be frozen for concentration and making the famous Eisbock.
So, usually the yeast is removed before the beer is bottled, but in some bavarian beers types, like the summer fresh wheat beer - common beer is made of malt produced from barley, but in the wheat beer the malt comes from wheat, giving the beer a tender, fresh sparkling taste - the yeast is left in the bottle. So those so called wheat beers are differentiated in yeast wheat beer and cristall wheat beer. Cristall is without yeast, the yeast beer contains inactive yeast at the bottle bottom.
A special procedure is used, to fill those beers into glasses, because the bar tender has to fill the glas with a nice topping of foam, but he has to left a little amount of beer in the bottle, and swing the bottle bottom in circles, to disolve the yeast in the beer, and finishing the glas of beer by giving this yeast into the ready filled glass. The realtive clear beer will than get a foggy appearance, but having the special taste.
So in most Pilsener beers the yeast left overs are still very low, but in the most surface fermantion beers of bavaria more left over yeast can be found, especially in the bock types, making those beers often not that clear as common beers.
And still: Yeast will not realy die, often it's only inactive and in a spray solution it will come to the leaf surface, and maybe some will be still active...
But the yeast is a large source of amino acids, if the yeast is active or inactive, vitamines and minerals in the beer act as extra nutrition to the leaf surface... and it seems that those compound of amino acids, low left over alcohol levels, vitamines and minerals will be much better taken up by the leaf than a common leaf applied fertilizer mixture.
But that's subjective.... I guess so, but it's not oberved by any study.
So I like the beer spray, and it's good to have a beer with friends.
About the snails: Well, do not get sorrow about... the dilution won't attract snails, because if you apply the spray in the morning, the smell will be away in the night and snails won't be attracted. Only if you apply in the evening, it would maybe attract some snails, but leass than the common used beer snail pits....
But here studies are missing.... because the effects of yeasts on pathogens are not well studied in plant physiology and plant disease managment.
Only one thing is tested and found: Milk contains several bacteria, usually of the strains of Lactobacilus and contains Lecitine.
The bacteria will produce a mild fungicide, prohibitied with the lecitine, making a 1 part to 10 part dilution of milk in water effective agains powdery mildew on roses and other plants... less effective than modern chemicals, but less harmfull for the ecological and biological environment.
So milk sprays do well...
So why not beer???
Let's have one and serve you plants one, too! _________________ Eerh, hmm, uuuh, oooh, just guessing |
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JoeReal Site Admin
Joined: 16 Nov 2005 Posts: 4726 Location: Davis, California
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Posted: Thu 04 Oct, 2007 10:44 pm |
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This reminds me of another topic I have posted earlier... A much better fungicide than beer, and it naturally comes free after drinking beer:
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Organic-Gardening/1983-03-01/A-Safe-No-Cost-Fruit-and-Berry-Fungicide.aspx
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A SAFE, NO-COST FRUIT AND BERRY FUNGICIDE
by Celine Caron
People who live in wet climates are often all too familiar with the effects of mildew on such plants as gooseberries, currants, raspberries, grapes, phlox, and roses ... and if the same individuals keep fruit trees, they're probably acquainted with apple or pear scab (Venturia inaequalis) as well. Many commonly used wholistic controls aren't terribly effective against these fungi ... while more potent fungicidesincluding lime sulfurdo indeed destroy mildew and scab but, unfortunately, also kill Anthocoris musculus, a valuable predator of mites and aphids.
The dilemma does have a resolution, though ... and it came about through the work of an English entomologist, Dr. Peggy Ellis. Since commercial fruit growers commonly spray a 5% solution of synthetic urea on fallen leaves to control apple and pear scab, Dr. Ellis reasoned that human urinewhich contains 2 to 4% urea, depending on the dietcould serve the same purpose.
The entomologist first tested her theory on a backyard gooseberry patch ... and was pleased to find that the urine was extremely effective in combating a mildew problem that had afflicted the plants. Encouraged by this success, she reported her discovery to the members of the Henry Doubleday Research Association in the fall of 1978. As a result of her report, I soon became aware of this breakthrough in wholistic fungus control. And since my own currant crop was plagued with a severe mildew problem at the time, I was able to test the remedy immediately ... and my results were every bit as good as those that Dr. Ellis had observed.
More work has been doneon both a formal and an informal grower-to-grower levelover the past few years, and the success record is impressive enough to make me want to pass the news of this technique along to MOTHER's fruit-growing readers.
UREA . . . I'LL NEVERSTOP SAYING UREA
Thanks to the research completed thus far, it's possible to outline both preventive and curative urine treatments. In either case, though, be aware that undiluted urine will sometimes scorch leaves and could kill foliage, so the substance should generally be used in its pure form only on dormant wood.
PREVENTIVE TREATMENT
Step 1: Spray straight urine on trees and shrubs just before the leaves fall in the autumn ... or soon thereafter (in this case, of course, leaf burn won't be a problem). Make sure, too, that the ground beneath the plantsout to the drip lineis well covered with the liquid ... as this precautionary measure will destroy any spores present on the fallen leaves.
Step 2: Treat the trees and shrubs with undiluted urine again in the spring, before the buds open. Be sure to spray the earth beneath the plants, as well.
Step 3: Three weeks after the buds have opened, treat the patch or orchard with a solution of four parts water to one part urine. This procedure should be repeated whenever you notice signs of a developing infection.
CURATIVE TREATMENT
Spray the affected bushes or trees with a four-to-one solution of water and urine as soon as signs of fungal attack appear. (In critical cases, I've used a two-to-one solution, and achieved excellent results with no evident burning of leaves.)
Urine can be stored in plastic pails or tanks. When it's kept in such containers over a period of time, occasional stirring will render the liquid all but odorless. Some of the nitrogen in the urine will escape during storage, unless you add a small quantity of material that's rich in carbon content (two excellent candidates are dry leaves and chopped straw) to the pail before any fermentation takes place.
In short, human urine (which, if from a healthy individual, is pretty much sterile) should be of real value to backyard fruit and berry growers. To quote the Henry Double day Research Association Newsletter, "This easiest of all remedies ... should attack only the types of fungi which produce ascospores or conidia, but it is worth using it freely and observing results. . . ."
There's a readily accessible and effective solution to the problems of orchard mildew and scab.
Celine Caron is the coauthor, with lean Richard, of Fruits et petits fruits: Guide pratique de production agriculture ecologique, a fruit and berry growing manual that was published in Quebec, Canada in 1981. | |
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Skeeter Moderator
Joined: 23 Jul 2006 Posts: 2218 Location: Pensacola, FL zone 9
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Posted: Thu 04 Oct, 2007 11:35 pm |
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Steve, You have some really different beer there! If I ever get to Europe, I'll have to try some of them. Most of our beer here in the US is filtered clear of any yeast, but even then it probably would not hurt the tree to try it. Of course, there is not usually much left in my Corona bottles but a lime peel. _________________ Skeet
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Millet Citruholic
Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 6657 Location: Colorado
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Posted: Sat 06 Oct, 2007 9:46 pm |
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I would add one bit of information. Citrus trees do not and cannot use vitamins that are applied externally either as a foliar spray or applied through the root system, with the possible exception of Vitamin B. Even the possibility of a citrus actually utilizing Vitamin B when applied by the grower is in serious doubt by some of the experts. This vitamin question came up a couple years ago on GW, and was settled by Dr. Malcolm Manners. Perhaps Joe Real Remember the discussion. Any vitamins that a citrus tree requires are internally manufactured by the tree it self. Therefore, the application of vitamins is a waste of time. However, any benefit to a tree by the foliar spray of beer could be, of course, from the other ingredients in beer, I would not know as I have never sprayed beer on a citrus tree. - Millet |
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Steve Citruholic
Joined: 10 Sep 2007 Posts: 253 Location: Southern Germany
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Posted: Sun 07 Oct, 2007 4:15 pm |
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Millet wrote: | ... with the possible exception of Vitamin B. Even the possibility of a citrus actually utilizing Vitamin B when applied by the grower is in serious doubt by some of the experts... |
Doubts are allowed! And have to be expressed!
So doubts about the vitamine uptake and vitamine 'intake' by roots and leaf pores is allowed, as I share them.
Quote: | Any vitamins that a citrus tree requires are internally manufactured by the tree it self. Therefore, the application of vitamins is a waste of time. |
But even if not, those vitamines are not harmfull for the plants, so I have no doubts about spraying them to the plants. And because they are in the beer, it's more effort of getting them out, as letting them still in the beer
So I hope you agree with me: The vitamines can be left in the beer, and even if they are not necessary for the plant, nor benefical, well, they are not harmfull and can be sprayed in the beer solution.....
Skeeter wrote: | You have some really different beer there! If I ever get to Europe, I'll have to try some of them. Most of our beer here in the US is filtered clear of any yeast, but even then it probably would not hurt the tree to try it. Of course, there is not usually much left in my Corona bottles but a lime peel. |
Well, Skeeter, your Corona has also a different flavour, because malt is there also used coming from corn! Because in Mexico corn a basic type of grain for human nutrition.
So it's even used in beer.
But here in Germany you will find different beer types and different 'how-to-brew' variations, different malt mixtures, some fresh, some roasted, some liquid, some dried.. There are different flavour processes, like storing the beer in deep caverns to build a special flavour, or to do the first mixture of malt, water and hop in oak barrels and adding a strong woody taste to the beer, or doing the same in stone barrels, and adding a stony, strong mineral rich flavour to the beer.
So you can travel from north to south, west to east and still get different beer flavours and you can choose your own favorite...
And usually no lef over beer is found if the beer is very tasty, so because I prefer a different beer as most of my family, I have left overs from birthday parties of the family which I can use, and if guest of local pubs have not the time to enjoy the last glass of beer, which usually comes as fresh draft right from the barrel.. but in the panic of leaving the pub, they left the beer in the glass and those my friendly bartenders collect for me, as usage for spraying my citrus trees, and the rest I spend some orchic growers friends.... _________________ Eerh, hmm, uuuh, oooh, just guessing |
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