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new Papua New Guinea Microcitrus- Citrus wakonai
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Millet
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Joined: 13 Nov 2005
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Posted: Tue 24 Dec, 2013 5:30 pm

One of the reasons stated why people are interested in C. Wakonai is its ability to fruit from seed in one year, and thereby hoping to transfer the earlier blooming ability into other citrus cultivars. In the book "Citrus Genetics, Breeding & Biotechnology" the book explains that one of the on going efforts by the Citrus Genetic Improvement Program, started in 2007, is genetic research to hopefully find a possible genetic cause for the long juvenile time period in citrus tree cultivars. Through research, efforts such a gene transfer and other avenues hopefully this can be accomplished in the not to distant future. - Millet
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bussone
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Joined: 30 Apr 2013
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Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA

Posted: Thu 02 Jan, 2014 7:27 pm

citrange wrote:
Quote:
in the same place there are C. wintersii and C. warburgiana

Same country, but not quite in the same place.
C. wintersii is around Port Moresby.
From there is about an hours flight to Alotau, with C. warburgiana somewhere underneath the flight path.
Then, roughly 15 hours boat to Goodenough for C. wakonai.
To find C. wakonai will be a real challenge. To find all three in one trip would be almost impossible.
But prove me wrong!!!


15 hours, but only 60 miles.

If money's no object:
http://www.pacifichelicopters.aero/
They seem to have a Port Moresby branch. Most seem based out of Goroka or Rabaul, which is more of a hike to Goodenough.
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bussone
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Posted: Thu 02 Jan, 2014 7:46 pm

Sylvain wrote:
Yuzuquat, everything you said is what I think.
Indeed the fact that C.Wakonai flowers in less than one year is very interesting particularly because this trait is (partially) hereditary.
Bridging needs many back cross, time is the enemy.
I think this crossing (Microcitrus x Citropsis) has been possible because they are "near" ancestors, aging from the time when east Africa, India, south China and north Australia were joined.
So we must try the cross of all the Citropsis and all the Microcitrus.

Citrange: "Really? More malaria?"
I swear, this time I'll take my pills. Smile


I'm inclined to think it's more likely that citrus either migrated from Australia/PNG to India, or the reverse, long after the breakup of Gondwanaland (~130 MYA). Flowering plants in general are only around 160 MY old. It seems more reasonable that seeds could have been bird-carried, or fruit floated across the channel on oceanic currents than relatively similar species could have existed in a relatively modern form, unchanged, since the middle Jurassic. Citrus seems too promiscuous for that.

That the Australian and the PNG species are so similar is no real surprise -- PNG only separated from northern Australia after the last ice age -- that channel is only 10,000 years old or so. Citrus might have been under domestication by then!
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Sylvain
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Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 790
Location: Bergerac, France.

Posted: Thu 02 Jan, 2014 8:25 pm

Quote:
If money's no object:
http://www.pacifichelicopters.aero/
We only have 500€ in the pot. Laughing

For the common ancestor I think I read some where 30 or 40 M year.
I must look how were the continents at that time.

I see that PNG is the country of Clymenia polyandra wich could one day join the Citrus. It is a very interesting plant.
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pagnr
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Joined: 23 Aug 2008
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Posted: Sat 04 Jan, 2014 8:36 pm

Bussone. i'm thinking the "Microcitrus" have been in their locations for a very long time. If you look at Citranges Wakonai page, the map shows 3 species in 3 locations. Not so far apart in Km, but seperated by mountain, ocean and jungle. The same is for Australia, in fact the ancient rainforest has disappeared between the locations of the Australian "Microcitrus" species, maybe leaving them to evolve seperately.
It's unlikely that Citrus could be widely dispersed to India, by birds/bats otherwise why are they not dispersed over PNG ?
Fruit bats and Fruit pigeons can disperse small fruit and seed widely, but fingerlimes etc are understory species. They are pretty similar to many other fruit species eaten by the Cassowary, a major disperser of rainforest fruit. The limited range of "Microcitrus" in PNG could be due to geographic barriers, preventing Cassowary movement ?

http://www.ehp.qld.gov.au/wildlife/threatened-species/endangered/endangered-animals/cassowary.html
Cassowary are not found in NSW, but many large fruited rainforest species still are, suggesting they once were.
Even the vivid colours of NSW Fingerlimes could be Cassowary attractants, similar to the birds colourful head ?
Vivid red, blue, purple, yellow, fruit are common colours of Cassowary food fruit in other species
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bussone
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Posted: Tue 07 Jan, 2014 3:11 pm

pagnr wrote:
Bussone. i'm thinking the "Microcitrus" have been in their locations for a very long time. If you look at Citranges Wakonai page, the map shows 3 species in 3 locations. Not so far apart in Km, but seperated by mountain, ocean and jungle. The same is for Australia, in fact the ancient rainforest has disappeared between the locations of the Australian "Microcitrus" species, maybe leaving them to evolve seperately.
It's unlikely that Citrus could be widely dispersed to India, by birds/bats otherwise why are they not dispersed over PNG ?


How ancient are we talking? 12,000 years ago you could still walk from Port Moresby to Cairns. Australia likely saw human habitation 70,000 years ago and dogs made it there 4,000 years ago (probably via boat). 4,000 years is a long time for selection pressure. Consider that 4,000 years ago, corn looked like this:



Our alternative is that citrus got stranded when Gondwanaland split apart and Australia drifted through the poles up towards SE Asia. If this were true, Australian citrus should look something like poncirus -- the poles were much warmer, but still only temperate. If we're assuming citrus trekked across during this period, you'd expect to see as much species diversity as you see in marsupials -- they came into Australia from South America around 50 MYA.

And why do we assume more species aren't around, or weren't recently? There have been recent discoveries because an unknown scrub bush on a sheep farm in the outback suddenly fruited tiny limes. Wakonai wasn't found until 1976, despite a WWII battle being fought on the island. It's not like opportunities for discovery were lacking, just the execution. But PNG still has a lot of jungle and a lot of poor roads and a lot of hard-to-reach islands and a lot of local environments that disappear when the local volcano goes all Krakatoa. Who's to say how many slightly different oranges are hiding somewhere in the understory?
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citrange
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Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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Location: UK - 15 miles west of London

Posted: Wed 08 Jan, 2014 3:21 pm

Having found all the information I can about Citrus wakonai, I have officially added it to HomeCitrusGrowers at
http://www.homecitrusgrowers.co.uk/australiannativecitrus/citruswakonai.html
The final version has a slightly modified map of PNG citrus locations, and two new photos showing the native habitat of C. wakonai.
If anyone finds out anything more - let me know.
Mike.
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Sylvain
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Posted: Thu 09 Jan, 2014 12:21 pm

On the south coast, the first bay before Alotau is named Orangerie bay!
Laughing
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citrange
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Posted: Thu 09 Jan, 2014 1:51 pm

Yes, I noticed that too - must find out why!
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Sylvain
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Posted: Wed 15 Jan, 2014 7:05 pm

There are 700€ in the pot now:
Citrange 200 Citrus grower
Sylvain 200 Citrus grower, Agrume-Passion
Foufouche 100 Agrume-Passion
And Setsu 200 Agrume-Passion

And 4 plants to find:
Clymenia polyandra
Citrus wakonai
Citrus warburgiana
Citrus wintersii (papuana)
and maybe more...

Two months to do it:
September, October.

Very Happy
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Millet
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Joined: 13 Nov 2005
Posts: 6657
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Posted: Wed 15 Jan, 2014 8:11 pm

Who is going to obtain, and pay for all the proper permits to go into these countries to cut and remove the plant material wanted? Then secondly, who is going to obtain and pay the required permits to bring these agricultural specimens back into the receiving country? Third, who is going to pay for the very extensive quarantine procedures, and the VERY looooong quarantine time that the authorities of the receiving country will surely require? (this will be the biggest cost af all). The receiving countries are not going to issue these type of permits just to any common Jack or Jane person who shows up and says give the permits to me. - Millet
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yuzuquat
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Joined: 01 Sep 2013
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Location: manchester, england

Posted: Wed 15 Jan, 2014 8:24 pm

Millet is absolutely right.

Neither US nor Eu are going to give import permits and possibly PNG will not issue collection permits or export permits. In those circumstances quarantine is a red herring, just will not get to that stage.

It would have to be a qualified botanist doing the collecting with seeds going to the USDA quarantine greenhouses in Washington and if all goes well a release date in the 2020's to Riverside or Winter Haven. The situation is more complex in Europe with each citrus growing country having its own quarantine area. San Guilliamo on Corsica possibly most likely public institute or tintori in italy as private business may be options.

Having said that if there was even a slight prospect I'd pledge 300euro's for Sylvian to go, just need more convincing its viable.
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yuzuquat
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Posted: Wed 15 Jan, 2014 8:45 pm

Just to make whole enterprise a lot more difficult could we drop off in China and get some Poncirus polyandra seed as well.


OK! Another greening endemic area with all the consequent problems.

Well I can dream can't I?
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citrange
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Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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Location: UK - 15 miles west of London

Posted: Wed 15 Jan, 2014 8:57 pm

As far as I can ascertain, there are no restrictions on importing citrus seeds into the EU.
Sylvain needs to check whether seed collection and export from PNG is permitted. Certainly it has been allowed in the past. In fact, it is generally accepted that 'ex situ' propagation of rare species is a good idea - so long as it does not adversely affect native populations.
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yuzuquat
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Posted: Wed 15 Jan, 2014 9:27 pm

Countries have become much more protective of their floral and fauna resources. With PNG"s proximity to Australia it is likely to have protective legislation in place along similar lines.

Think import laws for Europe are based on same standard as US to prevent spread of greening. Greening has not been proved to be spread by seed.

Maybe could get seed in via Switzerland. Perhaps seed initially could go to a Ukrainian member and from there to rest of Eu when they become a member.

Problem is Ukraine is not looking likely to acede soon as entry term have been thrown open to discussion again.
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