Aerated soils are much less likely to develop
a root rot, even a dry rot. Foliar diseases and
nutrient deficiencies are greatly lessened with
soil aeration. Air movement in a soil will aid
in frost protection as well. The healthy Citrus
tree starts with the feet and what those feet
reside in.

Jim

Citrus can use nitrogen in the NO3 form directly, but Ammonium Nitrogen (NH4+) has to go through nitrification by bacteria before citrus can use it. Some members might not understand the meaning of nitrification. Nitrification is a biological process that converts ammoniacal nitrogen to nitrate nitrogen in the root media. Ammoniacal nitrogen (NH4+) is an inorganic form of nitrogen that is acidic and tends to decrease (make acid) the pH of the soil solution over time. Nitrate nitrogen (NO3) is an inorganic form of nitrogen that tends to increase the pH (make basic) of the soil solution over time. Philip, here on the eastern plains of Colorado the local farmers grow mainly grain crops -- wheat primarily. The ONLY fertilizer they ever use is Anhydrous Ammonia 85%N. It is injected into the soil. - Millet

Millet, my soil still does not seem good, after repotting my tree in equal parts grit / orchid / citrus compost, the leaves are still falling, I have taken off most of the fruit, leaving just one or two. The ends of the branches are still going brown.

The soil just does not look right!! It looks too wet and dense. Have ordered 4 bags of coconut husk chips from Thailand, take 10 days delivery though. I think I will take it out of the greenhouse, put it in the house in cool light room and put it back in its original pot, hense reversing everything that I have done!!

I looked at the UBC BG forum photos a while
back and almost commented but chose to make
this post in this forum instead, knowing how so
well liked and popular I am.

Why do we refrain from fertilizing a weakened
tree with Nitrogen? Why is a 5-1-3 fertilizer
better for greenhouse grown Citrus than it will
be for an in the home grown Citrus? What kind
of percentage do the in ground Citrus growers
go by as a rule, depending on their soil type and
soil limitations?

We do not give our Citrus any Nitrogen the first
year we have them for a reason. Much of the time
too much emphasis has been placed on top growth
at the expense of root system development at the
time we purchase our trees. Nothing to me is
more disheartening to lift a Lime out of the can
and see what little it has for a root system. When
I see this, it is incumbent upon me to make a few
changes in the tree otherwise I risk losing it in
the near term. All it takes is one good cold snap
and the tree can be a goner. The weather will be
blamed for the death of the tree but the tree died
due to not enough root system to support all of the
top growth. We burn up the roots trying to do most
of the work for us just to sustain the top growth and
then when a cold snap hits what happens?. We lose
uppermost leaves first, then some dieback of the
younger twigs and branches and then we can see the
browning start to move down towards the base of
the tree. The poor roots, what little there is of them,
cannot do all of the work for the tree to help sustain
it once it has been weakened. Weakened roots
cannot help the top growth much to help it weather
and better endure the onset of cold.

In this case we have a Lemon that was purchased having
a disproportional amount of top growth versus the amount
of root system for this tree not to endure some growing
issues no matter whether it was in a greenhouse, in the
home, grown in a container outdoors or planted in the
ground. As much as people suggest not to prune these
trees we can prune grafted and rooted cutting plants
to force new root growth as soon as we get them in.
For our Washington Navels we waited seven years in
the ground to get our first crop. People today want their
Citrus tree to have fruit by the third year of age. This
is being rather foolish of them as they have no concept
of what is going on in the plant, the energy required
just for that juvenile tree just to push buds to flower
and then the energy just to sustain the fruit. No one
bothers to ask where that energy would go in the tree
if we did not force it to yield fruit at such as young age.
I find it very odd that UC Berkeley and UC Davis
thinking even in the mid to late 50's, early 60's still
holds true today for most Citrus and no one seems to
know anything about it. What we do to these plants
all because of our unrealistic expectations from them?
Ideally we want no fruit from time the trees come in
to us for at least 2 years of us having them until we
learn how to compensate for the energy that plant
will expend just to maintain even growth, even
growth meaning top growth and root system
development. Today hardly enough people seem
to think in terms of root system in these plants.

Many of you in this forum are collectors but how
many plants are some of you going to lose along
the way which is one of the reasons why some of
you have gone the cheap route to grow your own
seedlings because when you lose your tree you
will not have much money vested into the plant.
Time is more valuable and when people wait 10
years to get fruit from their seedling, either every
fruit will be the greatest thing since sliced bread
or the fruit will not be so hot. How many years
were wasted when you could have had a bona fide
named variety, even ones that are not what they
are supposed to be? You do not know it yet but
when you taste that seedling Lemon and it is bitter
to the point of being putrid your enthusiasm for
growing Citrus will be abated. Dealing with trees
that have a problem when we buy them will do
the same thing until we know what to look for
when we do want to have it and trees that have
a disease issue in the tree already should be
avoided entirely..

This Lemon already has a Pseudomonas in its
system. We can see that at one time or another
it had a scale problem and still may have one
as there is evidence of Cottony cushion scale
on this tree. We can tell by the leaves there is
a nutrient deficiency issue as shown in the
new growth and adding in Nitrogen only
exacerbates that problem. Root growth that
is already in peril will be hurt by any addition
of Nitrogen. Less harmful for indoor plants
to have a liquid dose but a granular application
or a timed released gelatin capsule will burn
off root hairs. How can the tree absorb
nutrients when we just burned off the root
hairs?

Forget any compost for Citrus unless the
main ingredient is redwood. Orchid compost
traditionally is mushroom compost. What
is a mushroom and what can we expect from
a mushroom based compost that can be
injurious and sometimes lethal to indoor
grown Citrus?

What you want is a nursery grade potting soil
or branch over to the CHC if you feel you will
have a tendency to under water your Lemon.
You do not want a soil medium that absorbs
a lot of moisture if you have a tendency to
over water when grown indoors in a home.
Not a problem when the tree is outdoors
in a container or in a greenhouse. The one
drawback with the CHC is that it does not
absorb nutrients and hold them and disperse
them later, which is why some people tend
to fertilize a little too often for most people
for most conventional container grown plants
but for their growing operation in a greenhouse
under more controlled conditions is just fine
for them but many not be for others.

First order of business is prune off all of the
denuded areas on the longer shoots. Prune
them back to where there are some leaves.
Quit using any Nitrogen for a long while
but do try to find a fertilizer that has some
micronutrients in the formulation. A liquid
form is best for your tree grown indoors.
If you cannot find a liquid 0-10-10 with
the micronutrients then go to an Epsom
Salt and Calcium supplement regimen for
your tree. Your current soil is too sour
for you to use any Iron sulfate applications
effectively as you will kill off root system
before the Iron has had a chance to neutralize
your hydrogen ion content and to promote
the amount of positive electrical charge to
the soil particles in your current soil. You
need to quit expecting this tree to make
a fast recovery when it cannot be placed
outdoors for any length of time. I don't
"buy" the sunburn excuse due to too hot
a sun in Britain. Come and grow these
things where I am sometime and there are
warmer areas than us such as Las Vegas
and Phoenix. Sunburn in marginally warm
areas is usually attributed to an insect
infestation, a disease issue, lack of root
system or a water absorption problem
more than from the direct sunlight itself.

You have someone in England that is
a member of this forum that has been
around these plants longer than most
of us in this forum have. He has one
of the most informative web sites for
Citrus there is online and has shown
he has some real moxie and accrued
expertise with these plants. I'd pay
the guy a visit if I were you.

Jim

Blimey, my eyes hurt!!

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond in such depth, it is very much appreciated. I will follow your instructions. My CHC's arrive in a week or so, so will bring it inside the house and let it rest.

Who is this man you speak so highly of, and where would I find his website?

Jim; I read in your above post the following,...."The one drawback with the CHC is that it does not absorb nutrients and hold them and disperse them later".... Your statement is interesting and I would like to know you why you believe the above to be correct. When a growth medium is fertilized with dissolved water soluble fertilizers, the solution is absorbed by both the CHC and the peat moss (4:1 CHC/peat mix or similar). CHC is capable of holding up to seven times it own weight in water, and does release it to the tree as needed. Since the water soluble nutrients are in solution they are also absorbed into the CHC/peat medium along with the water. I would agree that trace minerals are held to the medium, (any and all organic mediums) by the negative charge of the medium and the positive charge of the trace minerals, and release slowly over time. This happens whether the medium is a CHC medium or the common commercial mix. Lastly, I again agree with you concerning some of the concoctions that people come up with as a growth medium. Usually, as you say, they hold much to much water and for an extended time. Lastly, and I believe you will agree, 95 percent of problems associated with container grown citrus trees are caused by problems inside the container, and not from the foliage. I always enjoy your posts. - Millet

Jim great post. Thanks for the in-depth input.

One of the reasons I use some native soil in
my mixes is because I like using a granular
form of fertilizer during the Fall, Winter
and Spring seasons and will use liquids when
necessary during the Summer for container
plants. Right across the board whether it is
a Lemon, a Japanese Maple or a deciduous
Magnolia.

Not all of the granular forms will dissolve
in water much like in a clay soil that some
forms of the fertilizer upon degradation
will stick to the clay particle and stay there
for a while. When we were being bombarded
in school to apply 400 pounds of Nitrogen
per acre just to grow one crop of Tomatoes
or for one crop of Cotton, I was thinking in
terms of using much less and utilizing what
was already there and that is the residual
nutrients already in the soil. It just made
no sense to me to apply the 400 pounds
of just Nitrogen to the acre year after year.
How do we utilize what is already there
that has not yet been made available to
the plant? I had to go to a non Ag school
later to have my viewpoint appreciated by
someone.

I'll admit I am not exactly sure how the
CHC works as I have not been around it
much but to backtrack from my comment
I have to add that I don't feel comfortable
using a granular fertilizer as I have a feeling
that much of it will not stick to the CHC
and will just be wasted once it has been
dissolved or it will just stay there and not
do anything for us. I should have clarified
that I meant in granular form more so than
liquid forms. Even still some of the liquid
applied fertilizers that readily become soluble
will not or should not be a problem but it will
depend on what forms we are applying to get
the most use for us. When I hear of people
direct injecting into their watering practices
I become alerted to what is going on with the
roots. When people have 7 gallon plants that
are10 feet tall and taller and a lush green look
I begin to wonder what that root system looks
like and how well it will behave once that tree
is planted. We've seen in the nursery that
putting trees in the ground in which we got
a lot of top growth while we had adequate
but not a great root system that the trees
once in the ground took longer, sometimes
a lot longer to adapt than the trees that had
far better structured roots than they had
amount of top growth. The trees with more
pronounced root systems caused us the least
amount of headaches for us in a landscape
later.

I think that unless we are sure of the forms
of the nutrients that we want to apply for
a CHC soil in the home that much of the
nutrients will become wasted or simply
leached out of the container due in part
to our watering practices of either not
watering often enough or watering too
often. I think in a greenhouse that humidity
plays its own role that will help break down
the nutrients faster than in the dry confines
of a home. Thus, no matter how we water
the plants in a CHC soil that we will get
faster solubility using the fertilizer than
we will with the in the home grown plants.
Outdoors we generally super saturate with
repeated hose waterings or overhead
sprinklers if we have them installed and
the heat will break down much of the
nutrients to make them more soluble
quicker that the CHC can hold and
release for us but I just do not see
it happening inside the home for us.
I think offhand it is better to use a
liquid form of Nitrogen rather than
a granular form for CHC soils. I
feel the same way about nursery
grade potting soils in the home as
well to use liquids instead of granulars
in a soil mix that has no native soil in
it. I like silt or a silt loam just for this
reason and would still use some silt
in a CHC mix but for a greenhouse
operation with set watering, more
humidity and better air circulation
I'd not feel so intent to use a soil with
the CHC mix.

I think as long as the forms of nutrients
become soluble that the CHC can hold
and disperse them but how long will it
hold the nutrients is my problem in that
several people using the CHC seems to
me are fertilizing their trees too often.
I have a real problem here as either the
nutrients at the strength they are being
applied is not enough when applied or
the CHC is not holding the insoluble
forms well for us, to be released at a
later time.

I feel most of our problems with container
Citrus starts inside the can. It is a unique
thing that scale does not seem to adversely
affect a healthy plant too often and do much
damage but scale will attack an already
weakened tree and can cause havoc for us.

I did not mention that many Citrus have
Pseudomonas in their systems already
through propagation techniques, even
seedlings can have it passed along by
the parent but Citrus can live with the
symptoms of the disease as long as
the plant does not get injured through
a weakening from somewhere else
such as a root rot or an insect and
even when we have signs of a nutrient
deficiency or over fertilizing. Have a
severe infestation of scale and then
we will see the more immediate signs
of the bacterium in the deadened wood
accompanied by some lesions on the
branches of the tree.

I seem to have forgotten something.
Below is the link I use to take me to
this marvelous web page on Citrus.

Home Citrus Growers full index

Jim

Not sure why I jumped around so much in my last
post. Went back in and almost deleted most of it
out last evening and later decided against it.

I have no problems with people using a CHC for
their potting soils for their container plants. There
is one question that maybe you can help with. What
happens to the insoluble forms of nutrients, the forms
that take a while longer to dissolve in solution and are
they being held by the CHC and later released? This
may become important for those people wanting to use
a granular form instead of a fast acting liquid. The granular
forms in of themselves work well for some plants as not
all of the nutrients are released to the plant at once. We
do get some time release from them or residual activity.
The one way to know is test the CHC for insoluble salts
which I bet you do not see much of, which tells me that
the CHC will absorb and later release the liquid solutions
but perhaps not the solids prior to their breakdown. If
this is the case then liquids in aqueous solution is far
better for the CHC soils and we may want to fertilize
more often than we would using a granular based
fertilizer. You want to apply liquid forms of Nitrogen
that the plant can readily utilize and do not want it
to go through a denitrification cycle if the CHC will
not hold it long enough for that form of it to be later
released and available to the plant, if what I sense
about CHC is right. Not a problem just don't use
granular forms or bound liquid forms that do not
dissolve quickly.

One of the reasons people should use Epsom salts on
occasion is that when applied in solution it will help
break up some of the locked up nutrients in a clay or
clay loam soil or for tightly bound or compacted peat
in a potting soil. Generally there is a downward
movement of insolubles in a container but many are
eventually leached out, forced out when we super
saturate with hose waterings. We may see some salt
buildup on the inside of the can right above the soil
line but we also know that much of the salt has been
flushed out of the can by how we deep water.

I know of someone that is now growing his Maples
and some Citrus in a half nursery grade potting soil
and half CHC, mixed by hand, inside his greenhouse
until the plants are ready to be moved outside. We'll
later learn what his results are. Initial thoughts are the
same I have with the Ichang Lemon with the same mix.
We'll put the water holding capacity of the CHC to the
test when warmer temps come around with these plants
outdoors in full sun.

Jim

Right then folks,

My CHC's should arrive this week so Im planning ahead, whats the best way to get most of the old soil off the root ball? I have heard of dunking the ball in a bucket of water carefully?

Also when refilling the pot with my new mix, how do I achieve an even amount of roots over the pot, and not just clumped at the bottom with a load of mix on top? Is there a special way?

Thanks again for your help.

Ben