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Citrus Growers Forum
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Pigmented Orange Tree in Bloom
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JoeReal Site Admin
Joined: 16 Nov 2005 Posts: 4726 Location: Davis, California
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Posted: Tue 25 Apr, 2006 7:03 am |
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I have a multi-grafted pigmented orange tree. Inspected the tree over the weekend and here's my notes. Tree is composed of the following cultivars:
Variegated Cara-Cara (grafted March 18, 2006): still variegated buds, hasn't sprouted yet, but was forced last weekend.
Red Valencia (grafted summer 2005): 2 flowers on a small sprouted branch, other branches from other bud graft locations are vigorous but have no flowers.
Washington Sanguine (grafted summer 2005): 8 flowers
Ruby Blood (grafted summer 2005): 2 flowers, same story as Red Valencia.
Sanguina Doble Fina (grafted summer 2005): 2 flowers, same story as Red Valencia.
Rohde Red (grafted summer 2004): 3 flowers
Salustiana (grafted summer 2004): more than 3 dozen flowers*
Vainiglia Sanguigno (grafted summer 2004): more than 300 flowers*!!!
Tarocco (grafted Spring 2003): more than 5 dozen flowers*
Sanguinelli (grafted Spring 2003): more than 5 dozen flowers*
Cara-cara (grafted Spring 2003): more than 200 flowers*!!!
Moro (base tree, planted Spring 2001): remaining ungrafted branches have about 3 dozen flowers*.
*Number of flowers greater than a dozen are from a reasonable statistical estimates based on canopy coverage and density of flowers.
Very excited to see how the crazy blooming vainiglia's fruits will turn out this season. This is the acidless type of pigmented orange, with actually just a pink pigmentation like the cara-cara and not a true blood orange color. It has been reported to be among the best by Mid-Easterners. |
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Patty_in_wisc Citrus Angel
Joined: 15 Nov 2005 Posts: 1842 Location: zone 5 Milwaukee, Wi
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Posted: Tue 25 Apr, 2006 4:03 pm |
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Wow Joe, that is truly amazing!
May I ask what soil mix you use in your potted citrus? _________________ Patty
I drink wine to make other people more interesting
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JoeReal Site Admin
Joined: 16 Nov 2005 Posts: 4726 Location: Davis, California
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Posted: Tue 25 Apr, 2006 4:11 pm |
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Patty, it is one of my inground citruses. For a moment there, I thought I posted in the wrong forum. Thanks for keeping me on my toes! LOL.
I'm crazy checking out my plants, I think more flower buds are coming and more are opening, figured there would be thousands this morning all in all. But I don't think I will have more fruits even if I have more flowers. Will surely thin them out when they reached marble sized in case a lot will set. Will take pics end of month. |
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Patty_in_wisc Citrus Angel
Joined: 15 Nov 2005 Posts: 1842 Location: zone 5 Milwaukee, Wi
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Posted: Tue 25 Apr, 2006 5:05 pm |
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I'm sorry, I thought you said before that you have some in pots & some inground. LOL...guess that was Millet. _________________ Patty
I drink wine to make other people more interesting
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Millet Citruholic
Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 6657 Location: Colorado
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Posted: Tue 25 Apr, 2006 5:59 pm |
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Joe, Moro obtains the darkest red coloration in most areas, but Torocco I think has a better flavor. My wife does like the color of Moro nor does she like the taste ( I think its in her head, because of the color). I have two trees, so I leave one inside the greenhouse all summer where it stays quite hot.Because of the heat, the Moro left in the greenhouse does not turn red, the flesh stays orange like any other fruit. She will eat them. Go figure. My guess a mature citrus tree with that many pigmented varieties if in a large containes so that it could be sold would be worth $300 to $600 dollars. Some people would pay more. - Millet |
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snickles Citrus Guru
Joined: 15 Dec 2005 Posts: 170 Location: San Joaquin Valley, Ca
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Posted: Thu 27 Apr, 2006 4:08 pm |
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I like what you are doing but I must ask without any disrespect intended,
why do you want so many scions on one tree? I have an idea what questions
to ask and I am not sure you want me to ask them as they will lead to the
amount of these scions that you expect will be around for you in the next
5-7 years and more down the road. Unless you get real lucky and are able
to stay on top of them, even then you can lose some.
I come from an age when "Cocktail" grafts did not pan out too well, especially
with Apples, Plums, Peaches, Apricots and later Nectarines. If your project
is to see if it can be done you have done marvelously well but my concern is
how long will these scions live for you? Even Cocktail Citrus of the past
have not panned out well for most homeowners. I'll tell you, I like the whole
idea of that many Blood Oranges on one tree. I think that is quite a novel
thing to do and I do not recall that many that you have all on one tree before.
I have not seen it so I'll just shut up, leave you alone and wish you the best.
Snickles |
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JoeReal Site Admin
Joined: 16 Nov 2005 Posts: 4726 Location: Davis, California
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Posted: Thu 27 Apr, 2006 5:03 pm |
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Hey Snickles, it is alright to ask these questions, and you've got the right guy who is really passionate in doing such things. For me, I treat grafting very much like pruning. I just have to do it every year, that is why I never lose any cultivar that I like.
When you have a multi-grafted tree, you should never have to let it go on its own without doing anything to it when it is still immature. You need to nurture it to a point where you achieve growth balance and adequate tree size and then the maintenance will be like any ordinary tree.
There is a tendency for some grafts to be more vigorous than others. Among the reasons are (this is just partial list as recalled from memory) :
Cultivar and stock interactions - some cultivars would really grow very nice on specific stocks.
Specific type of grafting material you have used. Sometimes it depends where the buds were taken from. If you used buds that are from blooming branches with shorter internodes, after you graft those, it will not be vigorous but will bloom right away, and you may lose it because it did not develop a bigger branch. Some buds could come from vigorous spots from the donor tree, and this vigor gets carried over. Apparently the bud "remembers" what it has been doing and continue it over on the destination tree, though this is not always the case as sometimes the opposite could happen although very rarely. And yes anything in between could happen. One thing to your advantage if you are doing the grafting yourself is that you can select from the available scionwood. The longer the internodes and the fatter the stems, usually the more vigor the buds have when you graft them.
The destination branch on the tree. The vigor of the branch and its orientation. Likewise if you graft unto a limpy branch, you would have a limpy growth, no matter how nice the grafted material is. I love to select vigorous branches to graft to, all the time. For me, it is a waste of effort to graft to a branch that you know would die within a year. The best places to graft to are water sprouts. Instead of pruning them away, graft over them. Of course you select spots on the tree that you know it won't be shaded out nor completely shade out other grafts when it grows.
Sometimes, after you have considered all possible factors, the grafted cultivar is not as vigorous as you had hoped and so you may end up with an unbalanced tree. Or because you obtained the multi-grafted tree and it did not turn out to have a balanced growth. Have no fear, I have tackled this very specific problem easily. All you have to do is to regraft the less vigorous cultivars over to the more vigorous ones, leaving a few of the branches of your vigorous cultivars. This way, you are in fact pruning the vigorous one for balance while at the same time graft over it your less vigorous cultivar. After about 2 grafting cycles, you will achieve nice balance on your tree.
So you see, it takes a little bit of vigilance to achieve a nice looking multi-grafted tree without ever losing a single cultivar.
There are various reasons why people do multi-grafts and could be all of these:
1) to show that it can be done, especially by you, certified true to life bragging rights, LOL.
2) for entertainment, to produce something in your yard as a novelty item of interest for starting conversations especially during yard parties or visits.
3) to express yourself, either as a tinkerer or as an artist, sometimes, grafting a tree can be equated to making a sculpture, to relieve stress, or other therapeutical purposes.
4) to distribute the fruit harvest. If it were a single cultivar on a big mature tree, you will have a limited time to use them all when they ripen at the same time. By selecting various cultivars that can be harvested at different times, you prolong the season of your fruit availability and enjoyment. For me, I have fresh fruits every week from my yard the entire year.
5) for pollination. Some varieties would be better off pollinated and more productive if the donor sits right next to the target on the same tree.
6) limited space, that is why you multi-graft, but this does not increase the overall yield from your yard. You will only increase your palate and variety of fruits but not overall yield. It is the same as harvesting 10 buckets of fruits from your yard at one time, but then with multi-grafts, you will be harvesting the same amount, 10 buckets of fruits but now distributed over 6 months. Perhaps only the cross pollination will push your fruit production to be optimum.
7) really really cheap and very fast way of testing a cultivar in your yard. You don't need to buy and plant a new tree every time you want to try a new cultivar. Oftentimes, such trees are advertised as the absolute best, but it may not be so in your yard, and often when you are disappointed and would like to cut down or return your tree, the receipts are long gone, and the refund period has expired. Grafting to a mature tree will enable you to taste the fruits a lot quicker, instead of waiting 3 to 4 years to get the taste stabilized for a young tree, when you graft to a mature tree, often the blooms come the next season and the fruits from those are already as good as it gets on a mature tree. If you don't like the grafted tree after tasting its fruits, graft something over it. You have the whole germplasm to try very cheaply in your yard. Plant materials for grafting are very cheap and can be obtained for free from scionwood exchanges.
8 ) teaches you tremendous patience to wait for results spanning large amount of time, to get away from today's instant gratification attitude.
Of course multi-grafts are not as rosy as I have stated. Here's the major disadvantages:
1) if you lose the main trunk, you lose an entire collection. That's a big risk, something that can make me sad, but I treat it as an opportunity to build another one. I love doing it.
2) more involved in your part to balance the tree - for me this is not work, but playing with the tree.
3) some cultivars may require different set of treatment. For example, if you graft apricots and peaches together, you can not use lime sulfur sprays as this will kill your apricots. So you need to know what you are grafting and the possible constraints on your yard activities. |
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snickles Citrus Guru
Joined: 15 Dec 2005 Posts: 170 Location: San Joaquin Valley, Ca
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Posted: Thu 27 Apr, 2006 8:39 pm |
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I think you got into the part of staying on top of it.
Years ago I had a Ruby, Sanguinelli, Tarocco and
Moro budded onto a old selected rootstock. I've
been through the Peaches, Plums and Apricot bit
but never mixed and matched species when I was
in high school but later on I felt the need to have a
multi-budded Blood Orange made for me. I also had
them as single trees so I felt I could not get hurt much.
I am glad you mentioned what people have to watch
out for as I went through it. It was not long that I lost
one of the takes, a couple years later I lost a second
one and a few years after that I lost the third and have
had a Tarocco since 1990 and with a little retraining
has developed into quite a nice looking tree.
Since you obviously know what you are doing and know
what to do when the tree does not respond the way we
want it to, then people have someone to turn to. I felt that
people wanting a Cocktail Citrus must realize that these
are not for everyone. If we have the time to put into the
tree and can baby it some then these can be wonderful
and yes, for limited space can be a problem solver for
some people. I've bit my tongue and have suggested it
elsewhere in another forum, even though I personally
would rather stick to one variety per tree. Besides, I
have access to ample land area to plant them in.
I almost bought a semi-dwarf Sanguina Doble Fina this
year and passed on it as I did not know how different
it would be from my Sanguinelli clone from Tulare
county that I am happy with. Let me know how the
Sanguina Doble Fina compares to your Sanguinelli
sometime for color and taste.
Best regards,
Snickles |
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snickles Citrus Guru
Joined: 15 Dec 2005 Posts: 170 Location: San Joaquin Valley, Ca
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Posted: Thu 11 May, 2006 8:21 pm |
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I guess I'll learn after all if the clones are the same as I found
a semi-dwarf Sanguina Doble Fina to coincide with the misses
dwarf Sanguinella from Four Winds. Now, I guess I'll get to
know if both are the same as my standard Sanguinelli here. I
may not be happy about this if they all end up being the same
which is why I was reluctant to have all three but inquiring me
wanted to know and the only way to know for sure is to have
them and grow them on and see what happens in the years to
come.
Snickles |
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