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Citrus Growers Forum
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Sylvain Site Admin
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 Posts: 790 Location: Bergerac, France.
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Posted: Sun 16 Nov, 2008 9:46 am |
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Sorry, I am tied And I didn't see that you already answered the question. Millet wrote: | The answer to solve the tree's dilemma lies with the cohesion tension of water (3000 lb/in2 in the xylem as stated above). This cohesion is due to the hydrogen bonding that water forms. | Well, If you speak of water to water hydrogen bonds they already exist in the capillar glass tubes where it cavitates...
Indeed the hydrogen bonds with the walls could be very important in very narrow vessels.
Anyway, don't forget that it is a metastable state that can be broken by any vibration or disturbance.
Anyway let's do as if we accept the theory of cohesion of H.H. Dixon (1914 !).
Supposing that the column has enough cohesion not to break (not a very good English, I know), what is already hard to accept, in that theory you must accept too that the inside of a leave has a pressure of minus 13 atmosphere pressure and the outside plus one!
A pressure of minus 13 atmosphere pressure means 13 atmosphere pressure under the pressure of vacuum!!??
Yes, in that theory, as there is no other "pump" than leaves, the 130m column of water is hanging to the meniscus of the stomats. Do you believe (accept would be a better word) that?
Now, let us imagine that the water column hooks to these meniscus (hard to believe) or to anything else in the outside cells of the leave, The difference of pressure between the inside and the outside of the leave would be about 12 atmosphere. Do you know a structure in the leaves that could stand such a pressure without collapsing? I don't.
If that theory would be real, if you rub a leave of a tall tree breaking the outside cells your finger might be stuck by depression (tension) and even your blood sucked out through the skin!
For me it makes too many things to believe in, and you know that believing is not a natural thing for me. (<- this means JOKE)
Seriously, I think that the cause of water flow in plants is not perfectly known. We all do as if the few theories about that could explain the reality, but it doesn't.
Sylvain. |
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Millet Citruholic
Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 6656 Location: Colorado
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Posted: Mon 17 Nov, 2008 1:37 am |
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Actually, a tree moves water (thousands of gallons) all the way up to the top, and it accomplished this feat without performing any work at all. When a small tube is put into water, the water sticks to each side, called a meniscus. If this tube is so thin that the meniscus on one side can touch the meniscus on the opposite side, the water will climb up the tube (each meniscus wants to climb the side, they chase each other), which is called capillary action. It has been found that the pressure inside the xylem actually decreases with the height of the tree, this is because the capillary action is contending against the water's weight. Because the xylem is so extremely thin (25 micrometers) the waters weight is very low, but of course, not zero. The physical effect resulting from the interactions of the water with the walls of the xylem is important in moving the water up. The tree's trunk contains millions of very tiny tubes called the xylem, and these tiny tubes are made out of cellulose (a polar substance). Water molecules (also a polar substance) like to stick together, and also like to stick to the walls of the cellulose xylem tubes, therefore the water will rise up the tube by capillary action, along with transpiration pull from the leaves all the way to the very top. - Millet |
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Sylvain Site Admin
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 Posts: 790 Location: Bergerac, France.
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Posted: Mon 17 Nov, 2008 4:26 pm |
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Millet wrote: | When a small tube is put into water, the water sticks to each side, called a meniscus. If this tube is so thin that the meniscus on one side can touch the meniscus on the opposite side, the water will climb up the tube (each meniscus wants to climb the side, they chase each other), which is called capillary action. | The smallest tracheides could only lift the water of 0.75m (30in)(The smallest the tube the highest the water) Quote: | (It has been found that the pressure inside the xylem actually decreases with the height of the tree, this is because the capillary action is contending against the water's weight. Because the xylem is so extremely thin (25 micrometers) the waters weight is very low, but of course, not zero. | Here the weight isn't meaning full, only hydrostatic pressure is. Quote: | The physical effect resulting from the interactions of the water with the walls of the xylem is important in moving the water up. | No, the interaction with the walls cannot lift the water. In that theory (cohesion) only the meniscus in the leaves pull the water. there are no meniscus in the xylem (unless cavitation occurs). Quote: | The tree's trunk contains millions of very tiny tubes called the xylem, and these tiny tubes are made out of cellulose (a polar substance). Water molecules (also a polar substance) like to stick together, and also like to stick to the walls of the cellulose xylem tubes, therefore the water will rise up the tube by capillary action, along with transpiration pull from the leaves all the way to the very top. - Millet | No the capillary effect cannot lift the water more than 30 in. Anyway the "official" theory doesn't say that. It says "when the tube is full of water, the meniscus in the leave pulls the whole column of water". They don't even try to tell how the tube get full of water. They say the leaves can pull the water higher than 10m because of the cohesion of water. When cavitation occurs they are process (torus) that stop it and following the M. H. Zimmermann's hypothesis the trees could even be able to repair those embolisms.
But that theory doesn't explain how, in the spring, when there is no leaves, the water "push" in the buds!
The greatest root "pump" ever measured could only push the water at a eight of 10m. Still very far from the 120m trees!...
Sylvain. |
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citrange Site Admin
Joined: 24 Nov 2005 Posts: 590 Location: UK - 15 miles west of London
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Posted: Mon 17 Nov, 2008 5:50 pm |
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Can a bundle of capilliary tubes be used as a pump to transport water that will actually flow out of the end of the tubes and be collected in a cup?
I don't know the answer to that, but as has been mentioned, a spring pruned vine will drip water out of the cut - even if the cut stem is absolutely vertical.
So it seems to me quite possible for a tree to in effect trap such water dripping out the end of a capilliary zylem tube with a layer of impermeable cells. This could be repeated at intervals (of any height) ad infinitum. So, this thought experiment, based on observation of a vine, suggests there is no limit to the height of a tree due to water transportation.
Is there a flaw in this argument? |
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Millet Citruholic
Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 6656 Location: Colorado
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Posted: Mon 17 Nov, 2008 6:42 pm |
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In Australia, the Rattan vine climbs as high as 150-feet into the trees of the tropical rain forest so that its foliage is able to reach the sunlight. When the base of a Rattan vine is cut while immersed in under the water, water continues to be drawn up. A vine smaller than 1 inch diameter will continue to drink water indefinitely at a rate of 12 ml per minute. No root push here. If forced to drink water from a tightly sealed container, the Rattan vine does so without a decrease in rate, even as the resulting vacuum becomes so strong that the remaining water starts to boil spontaneously. The power of transpiration pull and cohesion. - Millet |
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Sylvain Site Admin
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 Posts: 790 Location: Bergerac, France.
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Posted: Mon 17 Nov, 2008 7:34 pm |
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Citrange> No you cannot have water flowing out of the upper part of a capillary tube. Any way, the second principle of thermodynamic says you cannot do any job for free. Well, it doesn't exactly say that .
In an other way, you cannot have a static process that gives you energy.
Perpetual movement cannot exist.
Millet> To make water boil (cavitation) you only need a depression (tension) of one atmosphere (= vacuum), well 20 mm of Hg above vacuum exactly. It is very far from the minus 12 atmospheres of the hydrostatic pressure at the top of a 120m tree! And even farther to the minus 30 atmospheres you would need to make the sap flow in that tree!
Yes you need about the double tension to make the sap flow than you need to keep it at that height because of the resistance to the flow in the capillary vessels of the tree.
If the water boil at minus one atmosphere at the bottom of that wine, how is the water at minus five atmosphere at the top of your 150 ft wine?
That is cohesion mystery... |
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