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Citrus Growers Forum Index du Forum -> In ground citrus
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Jack on HHI
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Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 35
Location: HiltonHead Island, SC

Posted: Fri 03 Nov, 2006 2:25 pm

This winter I will be planting about 20 citrus trees in my new yard. Does anyone here know which trees require how much space? Here's what I have.

1 Ruby Red
1 Valencia
1 Cara Cara
3 Page
2 Honeybell
1 Moro Blood
2 Meyer
2 Key Lime
1 Mango
3 Avocado

Thanks
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karpes
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Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 379
Location: South Louisiana

Posted: Fri 03 Nov, 2006 5:40 pm

I use high density planting which is 11 feet apart in rows for Washington navels with the rows at 22 to 25 feet apart. For satsumas you can get by with 10 apart in rows. In approximately 15 years you are supposed to remove every other tree within the rows to eliminate crowding.
I don’t know about planning avocado and Mangos in the ground where you are. They are not very cold hardy.
Here is a chart from LSU for optimal planting.

Variety or Type Spacing Trees/Acre
Kumquats 10' x 15' 290 - 294
Grapefruit & Round Oranges 15' x 30' 96 - 98
Satsumas 15' x 20' 87 - 116
Navels 20' x 25' 87 - 90
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mrtexas
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Joined: 02 Dec 2005
Posts: 1029
Location: 9a Missouri City,TX

Posted: Fri 03 Nov, 2006 8:05 pm

If you get flying dragon rootstock you can plant 8 x 8. You might want to make plans for 6-8years from now as by then you will have about 20x more fruit than you can eat. I have 25 trees in the ground with the oldest 5 years. I am not up to more than I can eat yet, but have a few dozen fruit each on 4 satsum, grapefruit, wekiwa tangelo, clementine, marrs early sweet orange, fairchild mandarin and ujukitsu tangelo. I keep changing my tree's variety and that has slowed down production somewhat. One tree was a sour orange seedling, grafted to bearing sour orange, re-grafted to varigated sweet orange, and now re-grafted again to 4 kinds of blood orange and one valencia. My sunquat has been regrafted to fairchild and chanshou kumquat. My ichang lemon was grafted to marrs orange has been regrafted to washington navel, the meyer lemon to panzarella giant orange. Several unknown variety satsumas have been grafted to a known variety. Ujukitsu topped with minnela tangelo. Orange navel regrafted to red navel. Republic of Texas orange grafted to wittaker's golden grapefruit and bell mandarin. The red navel at 5 years has only a half dozen fruit on it
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Laaz
Site Owner
Site Owner


Joined: 12 Nov 2005
Posts: 5664
Location: Dorchester County, South Carolina

Posted: Fri 03 Nov, 2006 8:13 pm

I would not plant inground this late in the year in Hilton Head. Best time to plant citrus inground is after the last frost in spring.

I would also add that Valencia is not a good variety for our area as the fruit ripen Feb - April and will be ruined by a freeze many years. Key limes will need to be planted up against the house in a very protected location or will be lost to a hard freeze.
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karpes
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 379
Location: South Louisiana

Posted: Sat 04 Nov, 2006 10:26 pm

Mrtexas
I think that Jack is doing what you or I have failed to do. He is going to get this done in one planting. I suspect that you are like me and this obsession took place over a period of years.
Just sitting here for a minute thinking, I can count in my mind 70 +fruit or nut bearing trees on my 10 acres of land. The squirrels and Blue Jays plant more pecan trees than I could ever need. I have persimmons ,bananas ,pecans, plums, citrus, pears, apples, pomegranate, cherry, peach ,muscadine, blueberry ,mulberry, elderberry, blackberry and for the third time in as many weeks I have sworn to myself that I would not buy another citrus tree.
You Go Jack! GITERDONE.
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snickles
Citrus Guru
Citrus Guru


Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 170
Location: San Joaquin Valley, Ca

Posted: Fri 10 Nov, 2006 3:44 am

If you want to plant all of these trees in the ground you
will want to break these down first by type and then by
ultimate sizes they will eventually grow into.

There are some questions that should be answered if
you want our opinion on spacings and which trees you
can mix and match.

Here is how we start.

The Mango - is it a cutting or is it a grafted tree. Do you
know what kind of Mango it is, such as is it an Indian or
an Indo-Chinese variety.

The Avocados - are these trees standards, semi-dwarfs
or are they on dwarfing rootstocks. I am assuming all
three are grafted plants. We need to know which ones
they are such as Mexicola, Mexicola Grande, Fuerte,
etc..

Citrus - here again we need to know if they are
standards, semi-dwarfs or are they grafted trees
on dwarfing rootstocks.

By the variety of trees that you have your planting
spacings will vary from plant to plant. The Mango
probably will become your tallest and widest tree
in time. The Avocados probably should be planted
together as a threesome and knowing which variety
they are may require you to protect them from cold.
The spacings for the Citrus will depend on what they
are such as standard or semi-dwarfs.

As of right now the spacings for all the trees planted
on one site will vary. You will not be planting a Mango
with an 8 x 8 spacing but you can use this spacing for
some of the Citrus providing they are on dwarfing
rootstock. I suggest you get a layout of the entire
site in dimensions. Based on what all you want
to plant you may not have enough room for all
of the trees, depending on the type of tree and the
rootstocks they are grafted onto. Mangoes can get
30-40' tall and larger and every bit that wide and
wider across. One tree can take up a lot of room.
Then how do you plan to protect the tree from the
cold as it is easily the most cold sensitive tree you
have so far, not knowing which Avocados you have.
Temperatures below 30° can cause wood damage
on young Mangoes and several Avocados as well.

I agree with Laaz, wait until the last frost has passed
in the Spring before you plant any of them in the
ground.

Snickles
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bencelest
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 13 Nov 2005
Posts: 1596
Location: Salinas, California

Posted: Fri 10 Nov, 2006 11:57 pm

Here's my reasoning and my 2 cents worth.
Because of very limited space and light semi-presence and I have some 40 citrus trees to plantand many matured non-citrus trees, my spacings are very limited. So I am spacing all of my citrus trees be it dwarf or standard at 5 feet apart.
This is just my own thought. Because of these reasons:
1. Menlo Growers have their trees planted this way. But of course if someone wants to buy them, they can dig them. I've seen them growing and fruiting some as tall as 8 feet.
2. If they intermingled, I can always prune them. I may still have enough fruits on the table and I believe this way is better than being in a wine barrel because the roots can spread a lot more ergo more tall trees more fruits harvest.
I wish I can spread them apart but I live in the city and my lot is considered small lot according to the city fathers.
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snickles
Citrus Guru
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Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 170
Location: San Joaquin Valley, Ca

Posted: Sat 11 Nov, 2006 1:24 am

I am not opposed to high density plantings but
for someone relatively new to Citrus it may be
better to give these trees plenty of room to grow
at first until they get a handle on what they are
up against. People that know how to take care
of their trees and know how to prune and shape
their Citrus can indeed plant standards 8 feet
apart as long as we know in advance that once
the trees start to grow they will require more
hands on maintenance and the more we touch
them the less fruit we will get from them.

If the focal point tree is the Mango we can
work in the Citrus accordingly but later on
we may have light restriction issues that may
not easily be remedied. If the target trees are
the Citrus to place in the ground and we want
to work in the Avocados and a Mango into the
same site with limited space, we may have to
choose which trees we really want to put into
the ground and which trees can remain as long
term container plants for us. The Citrus are
not so much the problem here but including
a Mango and 3 standard Avocados along with
the Citrus may very well be a real factor if land
use area constraints is an issue.

Snickles
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snickles
Citrus Guru
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Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 170
Location: San Joaquin Valley, Ca

Posted: Sat 11 Nov, 2006 2:24 pm

A lot of times we develop an interest in a variety of plants,
then we go out and buy some as we'd like to grow them.
Not enough people take the time to learn if we can grow
them for our areas and then take time to learn if others
are growing these same plants in or near our growing
locations and better determine what obstacles need to be
overcome in order to be successful.

I think it is prudent to learn how Mangoes grow in South
Carolina. What is the mature size of those trees grown
in that locale. What needs to be done to protect them
from cold and what companion plants can people there
use to complement the solitary Mango planting. The
above thinking can be true for the three Avocados as
some mature standard forms can get quite large in
size, depending on where they are grown. Quite frankly
all the above plants are my problem plants for this site,
when thoughts conger up in using them in a Citrus
planting. Okay, perhaps we are thinking too much but
we've been there, done that and we know what we and
others have gone through when people did not plan what
we wanted to work for us well enough before we went
ahead and planted the trees in masse. The problem is
not putting these trees in the ground, no matter what the
tree spacings are, the problems come later after we realize
we might have made some mistakes in how we planted
these trees. Eliminate some of the mistakes before they
happen is how we have been trained to deal with plants
in a landscape.

We already know we are not mainstream in our approach
either. With that in mind, all of you guys can help with this
planting. We will stay out of it from now on but we do feel
that people in the area are of better service to those that want
to fulfill their desires to have these plants in the ground and
what precautions will be needed to help them along until the
plants can adapt to that location. You guys can tell what to
do to help the Valencia along to give it some time so that the
fruit ripening is not an issue for that location or what can be
done to help the Key Limes to limit how much they will falter
until they have adapted. You guys seem to care about these
plants, help this person along so that once these plants are
in the ground he or she can be pleased about it and not run
into a series of growing issues along the way that may limit
their enthusiasm to have these and other plants later.

Snickles
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Millet
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Joined: 13 Nov 2005
Posts: 6657
Location: Colorado

Posted: Sat 11 Nov, 2006 2:52 pm

Snickles is correct. Some of our South Carolina or northern Georgia members who live and grow citrus in the area, can best help Jack On HHI with the planting of these citrus varieties. I agree with Laaz, whether Hilton Head has the required warmth long enough to mature Valencia. BTW I've been to Hilton Head Island. Nice place, with a ton of great golf courses, and alligators - Millet
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Laaz
Site Owner
Site Owner


Joined: 12 Nov 2005
Posts: 5664
Location: Dorchester County, South Carolina

Posted: Sat 11 Nov, 2006 3:43 pm

I do not believe any Mangoes will survive our climate.
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Jack on HHI
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 35
Location: HiltonHead Island, SC

Posted: Sun 12 Nov, 2006 12:40 pm

through last winter with the help of some Christmas lights. But I'm not sure about it's long term prospects. I would have prefered a "Bailey's Marvel" because I've heard they have very slightly better cold resistance.
I may have to give up on mangoes.

The avocadoes are Haas, Brogden, and Simmonds. Before I moved to my new house and decided to plant all my container fruits in the new yard, I grew an avocado from a pit and it has survived at least 5 winters in the gorund so far and was about 11 feet tall before I grafted samples from the other 3 cultivars onto it. I think these guys will make it.

I've had a key lime in a container through 3 winters and have't done anything to protect it form the cold yet. But I'm going to make sure it's on the south side of the house with some Christmas lights.

I was confused about spacing. If it's 25 feet for a grapefruit, does that mean 25 from trunk to trunk with a radius of 12.5 feet for spread, or from the trunk to the drip line of the next tree? I've placed flags where I'm going to plant and have given 15' to the lemons and limes, 20' to the oranges, and 25 to the grapefruit.

I've had trouble figuring out which zone I'm in, so I might make some mistakes over here. I'm on an island and just across the street from the beach. 9a? 9b? The yard faces south and the house blocks the north wind. The weather channel predicted low temps are always 5-6 lower than what I'm reading myself. Plus there aren't to many citruholics here to confer with. But with a big new yard and some new trees, I'm going to have some fun trying to figure it out. Any help is appreciated. Thanks, Jack.
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bencelest
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 13 Nov 2005
Posts: 1596
Location: Salinas, California

Posted: Sun 12 Nov, 2006 2:11 pm

I tried to grow mangoes in my area for many years and each year was a failure. I gave up two years ago.
We both at zone9 and close to the shore.
I also investigate our neiighbors and neighboring cities if one grows them. So far I have not seen any.
Avocadoes, yes. Mangoes, no. papayas, no. coconuts, no. Queen palms, yes (Ihave). Guavas, yes (Ihave). Lychees, no and yes I have one but still hardly thriving. Will soon find out.
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Laaz
Site Owner
Site Owner


Joined: 12 Nov 2005
Posts: 5664
Location: Dorchester County, South Carolina

Posted: Sun 12 Nov, 2006 2:41 pm

Jack our zone is 9a as of the last update.

Benny let me know if your Queen palm produces seed. I have a Queen as well & would like to grow more, but mine is not producing seed yet.
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bencelest
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 13 Nov 2005
Posts: 1596
Location: Salinas, California

Posted: Sun 12 Nov, 2006 4:20 pm

Laaz:
Mine are still very Juvinile. I just planted them last year in place of a matured other class of palms that went haywire meaning growing all over the place too close to the eves and very dirty the same faith that a Giant Palms that growed in front that interferes with my boat parking and I had to removed them.

I like the queen palms better for its beauty and not taking too much space.
I also have another palm tree (different kind) that I saved which is over 20 feet now and all of them are fruiting each year for many years now including the giant palm tree that I removed.

I also looked at my neighbors queen palms that I believe about 10 feet tall but still don't bear flowers.
So to me that's good. Those flowers are a nuisance once they turned to fruit and dropped to the ground. It appears that millions of them there are and you have to clean them.
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