Citrus Growers Forum Index Citrus Growers Forum

This is the read-only version of the Citrus Growers Forum.

Breaking news: the Citrus Growers Forum is reborn from its ashes!

Citrus Growers v2.0

Terra Preta possibly The Next Generation CitrusPotting Media
Goto Previous  1, 2, 3  Next  
Citrus Growers Forum Index du Forum -> Container citrus
Author Message
Millet
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 13 Nov 2005
Posts: 6657
Location: Colorado

Posted: Fri 24 Mar, 2006 4:56 pm

Between Joe Real and Alan's links I have a entire week end of reading to do. Joe and Alan thank you both for sharing the links that you found in your research. Lots of good information I'm sure. Joe this study get more and more interesting the deeper I go. - Millet
Back to top
A.T. Hagan
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 898
Location: Gainesville, Florida, United States, Earth - Sol III

Posted: Fri 24 Mar, 2006 7:23 pm

Some more URLs that may prove useful:

The ceramic artifacts in archaeological black earth (terra preta) from Lower Amazon region, Brazil: chemistry and geochemical evolution.
http://www.bibvirt.futuro.usp.br/textos/hemeroteca/acta/volume34_numero3/34n3_4.pdf

The Real Dirt on Rain Forest Fertility
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/reprint/297/5583/920.pdf

Update:

Bio-char seems to have another interesting property: it seems to "stimulate" AMF.

The idea that the application of charcoal stimulates indigenous arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi (AMF) in soil and thus promotes plant growth is relatively well-known in Japan, although the actual application of charcoal is limited due to its high cost. The concept originated in the work of M. Ogawa, a former soil microbiologist in the Forestry and Forest Products Research Institute in Tsukuba. He and his colleagues applied charcoal around the roots of pine trees growing by the seashore, and found that Japanese truffles became plentiful. He also tested the application of charcoal to soybean with a small quantity of applied fertilizer, and demonstrated the stimulation of plant growth and nodule formation (Ogawa 1983). His findings with regard to legumes were taken up for further study by the National Grassland Research Institute (Nishio and Okano 1991).

That implies that rhizobia as well as AMF benefit.

http://www.garyjones.org/mt/archives/000273.html

Nutrient availability and leaching in an archaeological Anthrosol and a Ferralsol of the Central Amazon basin: fertilizer, manure and charcoal amendments
http://www.css.cornell.edu/faculty/lehmann/publ/PlantSoil%20249,%20343-357,%202003%20Lehmann.pdf

Potential of Pyrolyzed Organic Matter in Soil Amelioration
http://www.eprida.com/hydro/ecoss/background/pyrolyzed.pdf

.....Alan.
Back to top
stressbaby
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 199
Location: Missouri

Posted: Sat 25 Mar, 2006 3:38 am

These links might be useful, I don't think they are duplicates:

Ameliorating the Physical and Chemical Properties of Highly Weathered Soils in the Tropics with Charcoal
http://www.css.cornell.edu/faculty/lehmann/publ/BiolFertSoils%2035,%20219-230,%202002%20Glaser.pdf

Soil Charcoal Amendments Maintain Soil Fertility and Create a Carbon Sink
http://www.tropentag.de/2002/proceedings/node98.html

MICROBIAL FERTILIZERS IN JAPAN
http://www.agnet.org/library/article/eb430.html#2

The Benefits of Charcoal in the Soil (Research Links) (links to these and other studies)
http://www.eprida.com/hydro/ecoss/background/charbenefits.htm

The next to last link from AT is particularly interesting.
Back to top
stressbaby
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 199
Location: Missouri

Posted: Sat 25 Mar, 2006 11:25 am

This would appear to be a 1978 patent on a bark charcoal-type soilless growing medium:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4067716.html

"The ability of the combusted bark particles to hold substantially better than 150, even 200, % by weight of water is particularly noteworthy."

The author seems to like this product, with a wetting agent and nutrient additives:
______________________________________
Combusted bark product A 29.5-37
Canadian peat moss 30-37
Expanded vermiculite 30
Sand 3-3.5
______________________________________

Robert
Back to top
Billy1had
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 42
Location: Houston, TX

Posted: Sat 25 Mar, 2006 5:33 pm

I am in way over my head on this subject - forgive me - but today at Lowes, I noticed they had real old fashioned charcoal. It is called Cowboy Charcoal made in Tenn. If somebody wants to experiment, the real stuff is still available at Lowes.

Bill
Back to top
stressbaby
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 199
Location: Missouri

Posted: Sun 02 Apr, 2006 9:56 pm

I stumbled across this alternative point of view with regard to charcoal as a soil amendment.

http://www.paghat.com/charcoal.html
Back to top
JoeReal
Site Admin
Site Admin


Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Posts: 4726
Location: Davis, California

Posted: Sun 02 Apr, 2006 11:59 pm

my rule of thumb of common sense is never to take any posted material from uncredentialed sources especially from vendors, manufacturers or sellers.

I usually place great value on observations by Millet, Benny, Laaz, Mr Texas, Malcolm Manners, Stan McKenzie, other close friends or colleagues and others (I don't intend to omit anybody, so my apologies) in this forum for their truthful observations and experiences. If what they say sometimes are contradictory, which is normal in any scientific discussions for the advancement of our understanding, I would simply have to take those in mind, often are, various scientific experiments can have contradictory results and interpretations, but I try to contextualize them with other possible factors. Equally well are those info published by Agronomy Journal, Scientific American, and almost all the other internationally refereed scientific publications, University Extension articles from all over the USA.

When there are no other available information, I will take those information from "strangers" and vendors at face value, something that needed further confirmation. Never because it is on the web that they're accurate. Will always have to look up on the credibility of the publisher.
Back to top
stressbaby
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 199
Location: Missouri

Posted: Mon 03 Apr, 2006 10:03 am

Yes, Joe, we're on the same page, here!

I didn't post the links above because I believe any of it, only to illustrate the controversy surrounding the topic. Controversial topics are ripe for research.

I find this terra preta topic fascinating, but I continue to have trouble laying my hands (eyes) on published trials using terra preta, charcoal, or similar materials in container culture. There are a couple, posted above, and I've googled their key terms, all of the main authors, etc. Maybe I'm not googling just the right search terms, I don't know. If anyone can point me in the right direction, TIA.

I'll definitely set up my own experiments once I get my hands on some horticultural charcoal; maybe I'll post my methodology here for critique beforehand. SB
Back to top
JoeReal
Site Admin
Site Admin


Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Posts: 4726
Location: Davis, California

Posted: Mon 03 Apr, 2006 12:01 pm

that I will place greater credibility than some of the links! have fun doing experimentations like we do.
Back to top
garnetmoth
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Posts: 440
Location: Cincinnati, OH

Posted: Tue 04 Apr, 2006 12:47 am

but if someone wrote it it MUST be true!$!^%$!#@&^!%$@#@&%#

Im sl glad ive left Disneyland to share in this intellectual pursuit with you lovely people! Im reading about compost tea, and will start feeding some of my seedlings with it, or miracle grow, or both. If anyone wants some worms to start a compost bin, let me know!
Back to top
Westwood
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 31 Jan 2006
Posts: 454
Location: Oregon

Posted: Tue 04 Apr, 2006 2:10 am

Growing up we always used our fireplace ash and charcoal to put in the garden along with rabbit manure .. plants did well on both but this is absolutly fasinating thanks you guys ..Tammy

_________________
If it breaths and loves life Im a Friend..

If it Breaths and Hurts life .. thats the end..
Back to top
bencelest
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 13 Nov 2005
Posts: 1596
Location: Salinas, California

Posted: Tue 04 Apr, 2006 1:15 pm

Garnetmoth:
I've been wanting to know how you start a worm culture in a compost bin but never did.
Can you tell us the way?
And how can I get the worms to start with.
I have plenty of old newspapers and leaves in my yard.

Benny
Back to top
Westwood
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 31 Jan 2006
Posts: 454
Location: Oregon

Posted: Tue 04 Apr, 2006 6:30 pm

Im not Garnetmoth But maybe i can help .
first i put in alot of leafs, Veggies ,NO meat and NO dairy NO egg shells(i was just told about the shell).. lots of Old use coffee grounds .. Sometimes ill even go to the star bucks or another coffee espresso place and get a couple of Garbage cans full soak this and then add paper .. soak the paper cardboard works too .. then go to a fishing shop or a hard ware store or see if you can get some night crawlers red wigglers are good to use as well.. I go to our mom and pop shop who sell them for extra money (both retired) and buy about 10 dozen worms ..around 20 bucks..i started with a small bin about 4x2x3 deep then let it set in the warmest area by my garage close to the garden and soak about 3-4 days apart... Mix at least once a week my oldest is 3 yrs old and awesome dirt.. my newest is 6 months old and 8x4x4 right under my tree and yes you can use cones.. Just not cedar.. for some reason its a no no (and im not sure why)
you can even put in some New dirt to help out with the worms .. I will get rabbit manure and add to compost for the worms .. or add it directly to the garden..

_________________
If it breaths and loves life Im a Friend..

If it Breaths and Hurts life .. thats the end..
Back to top
garnetmoth
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Posts: 440
Location: Cincinnati, OH

Posted: Tue 04 Apr, 2006 10:15 pm

pretty much all spot on Smile

I use shredded confidential papers without the window in the envalope (DF (fiance) put everything in for a few weeks and i was pulling ribbons of plastic out of the ocmpost for months!) and spoiled hay, half-fishihed compost or leaf mold are all good "bedding" or carbons.

Feed them anything vegetarian. Eggshells wont hurt them, but youll stab yourself when you turn the wormbins.

Wet paper or hay when you add it. crush or shred any vegetable and fruit material you can. DO NOT add nut products, i think its the fat content that makes them reek like high hell.

If the bin is dry, I try to only add moistened food or bedding. Jerry got carried away with just pouring water on them and not checking if the bottom was wet and they got horribly mucky.

I use big 5-10 gallon rubbermaid totes with holes drilled in bottom and sides for air, set them on the lid to catch the dribbles (should NOT dribble much. Worms also sometimes escape out the bottom if it gets too wet) and place a board or a spare lid or cardboard over the top, cracked for air.

they WILL get fruit flies indoors if you dont freeze all the food first (not my style) i keep them in the garage or the back porch. my first batch of aerated compost tea is ready, and doesnt smell any worse than the pickle bucket it was made in Confused

oh! and as far as ive read, only Red Wigglers (Esinia Fetida) are big enough eaters and multipliers for it to be worth most peoples time. some folks DO use night crawlers and use them for bait, but the RWs get pretty fat when treated with love and patience.

My next phase of the micro-homestead is to get a couplea banties (mini chickens) to see how hard they are to raise, and supplement the bugs they get in the yard with the excess worms.
Back to top
JoeReal
Site Admin
Site Admin


Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Posts: 4726
Location: Davis, California

Posted: Tue 04 Apr, 2006 10:49 pm

I love the red worms, they are on my compost bin, near the base. I catch hundreds of bluegills using redworms as bait. Use a nightcrawler, it takes 10 minutes to catch a bluegill, use redworm, less than 1 second you'll get a bite, at least in the favorite lake where I introduce kids to fishing.
Back to top
Citrus Growers Forum Index du Forum -> Container citrus
Goto Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3
Informations
Qui est en ligne ? Our users have posted a total of 66068 messages
We have 3235 registered members on this websites
Most users ever online was 70 on Tue 30 Oct, 2012 10:12 am

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group