Sorry to all,
if my bad english causes so much trouble....
But be sure, I all respect you and your ways of how to grow citrus.
That's what the forum is, different views on the same thing, because environment and experience counts.
And be sure, my respect, especially for Millet has grown in the last hours.... and for others, too.

Laaz wrote:

I know we all have different views on things & don't mean to come off the wrong way. Please have respect for each others opinion.

I will allways, be sure. All I write, is only facing what is written in informations, but never should be taken personally or the the person itself.
If someone thought that was so, please excuse.

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This forum was created because GW became such BS. Everyone is welcome to their opinion, but please keep it civil.

Sorry, but I cannot follow. You use shorts, I do not understand....

Millet wrote:

Steve, no I do not think that lower temperatures for several days will have much of any effect at all on soil two inches or deeper below the surface. Most especially, I cannot believe it would be possible at levels of feet below the surface. Dirt is a very good insulator.

Millet, yes! Dirt is a very good insulator, that's true.
But as better a soil drains, as poorer it's in his insulation.
So a loamy soil will be a better insulator than a pure sand. Even wet sand is better, than dry sand.
But that's why several, not all, areas encounter such low soil temperatures, because the were grown on very infertile sand....
But, as I allways said: It's usually the exception!

Skeeter wrote:

Ned, Surface soil temps do change with the season, but the deeper you go the less change there is.

Yes, and as depper you get, as more heat one can aquire.
Earth heat is used in germany to provide heat enegy for buildings and houses.
But you have to go below the top 2 feet.
Here in Gemany it's considered in Citries, that one feet depth will prevent water pipes from freezing, so they will remain at about 39° F....

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As you mentioned, your well water is always 55..... but I do not think it is much more that a foot.

As you can read above: In Germany it's considered that one foot deep, the soil will stay above 32° F, usually around 39° F, but it's a good advice for most northern and citizens close to the alps to get their water pipes not only one foot deep, better to got two feet deep.

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Excess growth that requires pruning would be a negative, but would be acceptable if the rootstock provided significant advantages in any of the above categories.

But, isn't that something, each homeowner has to choose at his own?
I want to see my plants grow, so I prefer powerfull rootstocks.
And I know many more, who think the same. Fruit and taste seems not allways to be everything.
But you are well, if less vigorous rootstocks do for you.

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Marginal difference can be obtained by microclimates and protective measures.

Here I fully agree, and there is more: The special microclimate and the typical environment where the plants are, this is usually very important to cold resistance.

I know many who have their trees outdoors for about 29° F, without damage. But I do not recommend that as a global rule to do so.
But I consider it possible, because of environment and microclimatic influence.
I am sure, it would harm most of my trees, but it is on the other hand, possible to do. And for those who do so, and have the experience, well....

I am not sure about soil temperatures as it relates to depth, but it would be an interesting bit of knowledge. I do know that the temperature becomes more constant, as depth increases, and that it fluctuates with the seasons, even here in coastal South Carolina.

I also know you have to go very deep here to encounter geothermal temperature increases. At Parris Island, there is a well, drilled years ago in an attempt to find a source of water. The well is over 2000' deep, and, at that depth, they encountered water temperatures of somewhere on the order of 125 degrees Fahrenheit. Of course, in some areas of the world geothermal energy is much closer to the surface and temperatures are much higher - Yellowstone National Park being but one example.

Not sure what all of this has to do with growing citrus. I agree that there are other viable rootstock options besides Poncirus. I have always thought that Swingle is ok to use here. In fact, I have one Satsuma on Volk, and it is doing great, whereas Stan lost a mature Satsuma on lemon to cold several years ago. I know that trifoliate offers some advantage in passing cold hardiness to the scion, and in size control, but so does Swingle. How much difference there is in the two, I know not. If one says that Poncirus offers several degrees more hardiness, the question becomes; more hardiness than what?

Trees grown on Flying Dragon here do remain small, at least based in the period I have observed them, and that is certainly an advantage for the average homeowner, hardiness aside.

As previously pointed out, there are advantages and disadvantage in each rootstock, and those advantage/disadvantages must be weighed against the growing conditions encountered by the grower.

Ned

Steve, I for one do not have any problem with different opinions and if I can learn from their experience, so much the better.

In my post I have merely pointed out that my experience with trifoliate is apparently different from yours-- at least I consider growth of 4 ft from a bud in one season and growth of a tree to 10 ft in 4 seasons more than minimal growth.

Millet has pointed out in earlier threads that rough lemon will produce faster growth and greater production, but that it comes with a cost relative to taste or quality of the fruit-- not a problem for juice growers that can blend the final product for taste-- but also not my preference as a homeowner.

You obviously know a lot more about citrus than I do and I am sure that many on this forum can learn from your input, hopefully we can all learn from each other..

Steve, don't worry about poor English... YOUR English is much better than my Deutsch. Remember Americans have their on version of English they have changed the spelling of many words from real English.!

By the way, my slow growing PT came from a seed produced by a tree in Switzerland .

What is your definition of a Mediterranean climate?

Greg

Steve,

That is true about the taste preferences. It changes with various people, it even changes within a person as they grow older. I for one don't like the super sweet taste of Florida citruses. I learned to love the sweet and sour taste of California's oranges. And as I grow older, I prefer the less sweeter types.

We can take advantages of various rootstocks to satisfy our goals in terms of taste, growth, size of various citrus cultivars among others. Thus we cannot really make sweeping generalizations that one rootstock is better or superior than another. Rather, we should mention why we prefer one rootstock over another. It doesn't mean they will be the best rootstocks.

I love the diversity of our cultivars, our rootstocks, and their interactions. At one point or another, we should exploit these knowledge to satisfy our goals. Commercial grower have often dramatically different goals than a home grower who has limited planting space. Often the commercial growers will rationalize to death that they did not make a mistake in making a huge investment in selecting their rootstocks, but for home growers, so what if I make mistake with one rootstock in one of my pots or planting hole, we'll simply buy another one and move on to continue our experimentations

Joe

For someone who has experience with something, it is often hard to believe someone when they describe an experience that is much different than their own. However, there can be many factors at work creating those differences. Many of the regulars on this forum know about my "second chance Daisy" bud that has grown over 4 ft this year--from a bud that was broken off when it was just a 1/4 inch. I was very happy when one of the 2 buds that had been broke off began to grow. And grow it did! I recently posted a picture in the photo galley.

One thing that may have been involved with this phenomenal growth is the fact that the trifoliate rootstock was a sprout that came up on a satsuma tree that had been severely pruned because of disease-- sooty canker. The satsuma was planted 3 yrs ago, but has very little top growth due to the disease. When the rootstock sprout came up, I took Joe's advice and grafted it instead of cutting it off. Clearly, that sprout, got most of the energy from a 3 yr old rootstock.

Climate and soil as well as possible genetic differences in the basic trifoliate rootstocks may also be at work here, but it is from observation and comparison that we learn of the relative importance of all the factors controlling growth.