Hi all,
I've been searching through the archives for a FAQ or post about the "right" way and frequency of watering a container citrus, and can't find one. (Learned a lot of other good things, tho. LOL)

I'm feeling a little discouraged about the watering situation with my 7 potted citrus bought in March and April. I'm using a really fast moving bark/perlite/peat mix that I falsely thought would minimize my "watering" challenges because that mix is more forgiving than peat based mixes... but I'm still learning why they say that watering is one of the hardest things to master with container citrus.

We've had some crazy hot weather last week here in the Bay Area (it's only gong to get hotter this summer) ... last week it was 104 here. This week it's only 75, but a lot of my citrus are looking all droopy and limp, they've dropped fruitlets, they're starting to lose a handful of leaves each. I know the biggest no-no is to overwater, but now I wonder if I'm erring on the side of underwatering?

Are there subtle differences between the symptoms of overwatering and underwatering?

So what's the definitive answer to WHEN to water. Or rather, how do I know that I'm watering ENOUGH---not too much, but not too little?

Some people say to put your finger 2-3 inches into the soil and if it's dry then water. But there's a post from Millet advising that the plant usually loses 2-3 inches from evaporation at the surface and that the inside is often much wetter. If you water with this rule, you're overwatering, right?

I've been using a sharpened wooden dowel (poor plants get poked every few days... LOL) and I only water when the dowel comes back completely dry with no trace of moisture or a cool damp soil smell on it. I just poke in and out... but one post I saw they leave the skewer in for 2 hours. Does that make a difference?

I have also heard often to let the plant dry out completely before rewatering. But how do you KNOW it's dry? I'm using heavy terra cotta pots, so lifting pot is not an option. And "completely dry" confuses me because most potting media become hydrophobic after a certain point.

I guess what I really don't understand is what does "just about dry" feel like TO THE TOUCH? Sometimes I will dig down into the pot 4-5 inches to feel the soil, and it has a slightly tacky, damp feeling like a freshly opened bag of compost or potting mix from a nursery. Friable and loose and it doesn't form a ball. But you can still feel a touch of moisture in there. Would you consider that "still wet" or "dry enough to water again"?

I just don't get it.... I have friends and family here in the Bay Area that literally neglect, abuse, and otherwise do "everything wrong" for citrus. I have a friend who has a bunch of beautiful and fruiting potted meyers that sit in shady corners of their lots and that they almost never water. My mom, she has grown her meyer lemon in the same pot for over 10 years with 100% compost, which theoretically should be smothering the roots but it's thriving and fruiting, too.

And here I am, educating myself with books and participating on these forums. Going out at the end of a hot day and shoving dowels into my plants and feeling the soil between my fingers, and I am afraid I'm going to have nothing to show for it except 7 lovely evergreen shrubs that drop all their fruit and maybe bloom sweet blooms once a year.Ugh!

THANKS in advance for the advice, moral support, or tips you want to share. It is much appreciated from you experts.

(And Millet, I'm sure you're going to mention fertilizer... LOL Let's just assume I use synthetic fertilizer... what would you tell me about the watering aspect? LOL)

Thanks!

I am not among the "experts", and I don't bring answers, but let me tell you that your questions are very clever and very well written.

Hello every body,
to my mind, as sylvain said it, it is the most important question in culture of citrus fruits in containers and the one who will bring a clear and precise answer will eliminate the majority of the met problems by " the majority of the amateurs ".
Thank you krismama for this excellent question
Best regards
Robert

I read somewhere once,citrus can survive on 1 inch of water a week in hot weather.More trees are killed from over watering than anything else.I have killed plenty,so i can say that is so!!! I use a moisture meter which some here dont approve of but it works ok for me on most of my trees. What i have noticed is,if you water too much,then the roots stop taking up water and become suffocated.They need air just as much as water.I use the mix you are using but nearly half of it is perlite to let the air in. If the roots are soggy,they start to suffer within 48 hrs. You need to be consistent with your watering and relative to the climate at the time.In summer it should be more frequent.Its better to really flush the pot,than give it small shallow waters.
You can put your pots on feet to help the air circulate around them.Dont plant in big pots.Two inches bigger than the rootball is good.
I have killed at least 10 dwarf trees! All from the wrong mix and cold and soggy mixes.Coarse materials are good with small trees.I love perlite,some dont but it lets air into those roots and thats very important.
Peat just causes problems for me,as do water crystalls but we get a lot of rain here and summer temps of 25-26c
80 % of my mixes are drying well now,the roots are active and the mix is warmer.I too have them in terracotta pots.I have slow release osmocote in them and i only feed otherwise when i see new growth coming.By having the slow release in there,there will be nutrients available just before they put out a growth flush,which helps.I like seaweed ferts,they are supposed to encourage roots.What you see on top is a reflection of whats going on underneath.
I dont water until the mix is on the dry side of moist on my meter.I dont let it dry completly but not far off.Your terracotta are breathing,your mix sounds reasonable but it sounds like it is staying wet too long(therefore the root temp will be low),there will be less o2 around the roots and the plant will drop its leaves and twig die back.Been there ,done that. Some of my mixes are 50 % standard potting mix and 50% perlite.It drains really quick and suits my climate.You want it to dry out but if its boiling there,you need some water retention. I was watering once a week in the summer here(26c). Have a look around here for the pwt(perched water table),Your mix may look dry but there will be water towards the bottom of the pot.Thats why i like to use a meter to check around the root zone.You could try some hydrogen peroxide to breathe some life back into the roots. Slide one of them out and have a look at the roots.They should be light brown and have some white tips(new growth),
You will be suprised at the water down low.If the roots look dark brown,mushy and soggy,smell then trim them off.make a fresh mix like mine,repot and trim the top(if there is any left!!!).I have a tree recovering now but it takes time. Your better to get the mix right. Only water when needed,feed during active growth. When you have repotted,water and leave it alone until its nearly dry.You can use the methods you mentioned.You could lift the pot after you have transplanted,before you water.So you can feel the weight when it is dry.Then you will know when to water next time.Citrus need time to dry,the moisture evaporates and leaves air spaces behind and the roots enjoy this.Especially in the top half of the pot.Hence the 3 inch finger rule.Thats where they like to grow.
Even with all the good will in the world,they can still be awkward.I have a clementine thats playing up at the moment.One thing i have noticed,as long as the mix is drying,i know everything is ok because
a) the roots are active and can breathe
B) if the mix is saturated on my meter it will kill the roots due to lack of o2.
My clementine mix is not drying much,so the roots arent doing much.I think they have been too wet,the leaves have been curling and the main vein down the leaf going yellow,which i think is drainage(staying too wet).
I say get a good quality moisture meter,change your mix to more perlite,add small amount of osmocote and dont feed until new growth appears.Maybe get a meat thermometer and check your soil temps.
Only water when nearly dry and then deeply.Water first,then water with half strength feed,so not to burn roots. Never feed soluble fert unless you have watered the plant first.At the moment your trees are stressed,so feeding is a bad idea.Id water with the hp now and then leave them to dry out,you should get some life back.Good luck .man i really waffled here!!! lol perlite rocks,i dont care if it comes to the top.In isreal they grow citrus in 100 % perlite in pots and they grow well.Insects dont like it either.You could also try coconut husk chips,they are very popular around here.Dont be scared to experiment.I have tried lots of methods.Trial and error has worked for me.I have tried popular mixes from here and my plants have still died,so have an open mind but you need air in those roots.Enjoy.

First, it is important to know that watering a containerized tree is much more of an art than it is science. It is not the over watering that kills a tree, it is the lack of oxygen that kills the tree. Every time a container is watered the medium fills with water, which replaces medium's oxygen. A coarse fast draining medium, the water quickly drains away, and oxygen renters. It is actually difficult to over water a fast draining medium. Potting soils that contain to much filler, such as peat moss, retain too much water, and therefore not enough oxygen. The water oxygen balance changes in favor of too much water as the medium ages and begins to degrade. There are three methods of determining when to water a container. (1) stick you finger into the medium, (2) water meter, and (3) weight of the container. Of the three I relay mostly on the weight of the container. I never use a water meter. Water meters can get a grower in trouble. With light airy growth mediums that contain a large portion of coarse wood chip material it is difficult to determine the moisture content by inserting your finger. These types of mediums usually never feel wet enough to make a solid determination whether to water or not. For rapid draining mediums, soaking the container for several minutes, insures that the "soil" is completely watered. Text books say to water when 50 percent of the irrigation water in the container has been used by the plant. It does not take long to be able to make determinations based upon a containers weight. The difference between the weight of a recently watered container, and a container that again needs watering soon becomes second nature. Watering is an art that has to be learned by each person.. It is more of a feeling, than an exact science. If in doubt when to water, wait until the next day. - Millet

Thank you very much everyone.

I think the mixture I have right now is not coarse enough and I'm going to switch to something more coarse. My main ingredient right now is composted redwood bark, but it has a lot of composted redwood shavings in it too and it's flattening out and getting gummed up with the other stuff I added. It's much more pronounced in the larger pots, as you can imagine.

I think I'm going to switch to fir bark fines and perlite... and hopefully that will make it easier or at least more forgiving.

Lifting the big terra cotta pots, though... not sure how I'm gonna do that. LOL

I remember seeing photos of Bencelest/Benny's plants somewhere... anyone know what HE plants in?

Thanks!
-Kristi

Millet has sumed it up well.I think i will go more for the pot weight from now on then.I have used a water meter but that makes good sense to me.It sounds like you have very big pots!! what size are they?
In Italy,they tap the sides of their terracottas and go by the sound!!!!but they have been growing for ages.They didnt play any tune for me lol!!! If you get a good blend of organic and inorganic components in your mix,you will start out the right way. inorganics =perlite,turface,granite,pummice,sand etc.Stuff that doesnt break down.The perlite prevents compaction of the mix.Thats what starves the roots of 02.The organics break down and compress.peat tends to compact and remain very wet and has fine particles.I found that stones or pummice actually dont help the mix to dry out.Perlite definately does(coarse preferably)Interesting a.
Good Luck and go for it!

Does anyone have recommendations on automating watering with no interaction? If it is really not recommended for long term, what about short term(1-2 weeks)?

As kristimama grows her trees in terracotta (clay) containers, I would make one comment about growing in clay containers. The root tips of citrus, in fact the root tips of most all higher plants, are easily capable of seeking out valuable materials and avoiding harmful ones. They grow directly towards the greatest concentration of nutrient salts. The citrus grower can easily see this if two trees are grown alternately in clay and plastic containers. When repotting it can be seen that the growth medium in the plastic container has been uniformly penetrated by the roots. In the clay container, on the other hand, one will notice that all the roots press towards the wall of the container, where the fine little roots even penetrate the pores of the clay (and have to be torn off in repotting). This is because in clay containers part of the medium's moisture always evaporates through the walls of the container, and the dissolved nutrients remain behind and accumulate in the clay, while the growth medium itself has been impoverished. Plastic containers, especially plastic air root pruning containers, are therefore to be preferred for citrus, and even house plants, but since water loss is much less in plastic than in clay containers less watering is needed, or else the roots may rot. - Millet

Ok,thats interesting.That would explain the build up of salts on the outside of the pots also.I always try to water the outside of the pot also.I would presume that as long as you potted up before the tree became potbound,that would not be a problem?Would it even,root prune to
some extent? Becoming rootbound in a conventional plastic pot would be just as bad as the roots would circle.I have tried to grow in plastic pots and the mix tends to stay too wet.Its a shame we dont have the root pruner containers millet mentions in New Zealand as i would love to try.I will check my trees roots in spring and see how they are.We are heading into the wet winter now.I will be growing some dwarf cherries in containers from now on.
I might well try a few trees in black plastic containers in spring,see how it goes.Happy growing everyone.

Hello all,
It has been a long time since visiting the forum. I have had nothing but bad luck with potted citrus. I came here for advice and even coresponded with fourwinds growers for advice. What I came up with was basically citrus needs super fast draining fluffy soil. Fourwinds told me to mix hamster cedar shavings in mix. I have done everything I can and still no luck. I am using small pots blah blah blah. I am in the S.F. bay area. When I use a moisture meeter it seems to always say wet. I am gonna give up. I have citrus in ground that does great.
Millet says terra cotta is not the best so I only have one myer in terra cotta. I even have a oro blanco that i kept in the nursery container for a year and that is dying too. No leaves and dead wood. My family and others in Italy have gorgeous citrus in huge terracotta pots. What's up with that and I know they don't go on any forums. I am ready to quit the whole potted citrus atempt. My dad has friends here that say citrus need alot of water and they have them on drip. In fact one guy told my dad to fill a big bottle with water and put a pin hole in it and set in on the potted trees. I think my last resort is a citrus doctor to make a house call.
Well the when to water just got me going because that is what I ask myself everyday with these potted citrus.

Hi Big Mario,I know what you are feeling.I have had plenty of frustrations like you have suffered.I have killed many trees.In some ways,it is easy just to stick in the ground.In fact its very easy.Just dig a hole slightly smaller than the rootball,mix a little compost with the existing soil and chuck it in the ground,slightly elevated.The bonus of that is all that drainage and no perched water table.From my experience,its been watering and lack of oxygen to the roots,that causes all the problems.Yes in Italy,they have been growing citrus in terracotta for years and years.
I have 10 young trees in terracotta and all but one are going well but i think the mix i am using plays a big part as well.I use a lot of perlite.It stops compaction,allows air to the roots and encourages drainage.
By a new plant,gently remove as much of the old soil and plant in a mix of at least 50/50 potting mix and perlite(no water retention crystals).See how it goes.When trees are young they are very easily killed and stressed.I find this mix stays evenly moist and is almost impossible to overwater.I have one tree in a plastic pot with this mix but it is drying much slower than the terracotta.
I have two trees in the ground and they are going well,although my lemon nearly died when it was young.Once they get going they are ok.All my trees are dwarfs,which i think tend to grow slower too.Good luck,keep trying but you could stick your favorite variety in the ground and dont add fert at time of planting,only with new growth.If you are not supposed to add any fert when you transplant in the ground,then surely that should be the same when you first transplant into a pot? and then wait for new growth before feeding.hmmm

what kind of potting mix has no wetting crystals or agents. All the mix I see have peat moss or spagum moss. Aren't those wetiing agents. I have planted my satsuma in some miracle grow cactus/citrus mix and added some peralite and cedar shavings. It drains super fast. We'll wait and see what happens. If I had the room I would put more in the ground. I really want a meyer to do well in a pot and they start out looking good and then after winter (and I have even tried to shelter them from frost in a make shift lemonia) they start fading. I water and a week or more later I still dont get a dry reading 4 inches down and not at the edge of pot. And I try my meter in other plants and it works. Some times I water when I fertalize and a month later it is still middle of gauge in moist reading. Could it be that my mix is so fluffy easy draining that I need to water more even though I ca't seem to get a dry reading? I want to figure it out so I can try another citrus. Thank goodness I got my oro blanco that is almost dead from osh. I can return it for a new one. And it is still in its original pot.

Hi,no peat moss and spagnum moss are not wetting agents.Water storage crystals swell when watered and store water,so the roots can grow into them.
What you can also do,is when you transplant your new plant into a pot,lift it up and feel the weight of it.Then water reasonably until you see some water come out the bottom,then stop.Dont water again until it feels the weight it did when you potted it.If the roots stay too wet/cold and will not take up water and the mix will stay wet and compact.Lack of 02 comes next.It will take a few weeks after transplant for the roots to start taking water up.So,i would say tread very carefully with your watering for the first month.Once those roots kick in they will be fine and if you leave it to dry out,the roots will colonize the pot.Its very easy to damage the fine root hairs when you transplant.Just use a pot that is 2 or 3 inches bigger around than the rootball and keep it out of the sun,while the roots settle in.You could water with some hydrogen peroxide 3% to send some o2 to the roots.Often thats what is lacking when the soil becomes soggy.You can find potting mixes without the water storage crystals or wetting agents and go at least 50/50 with perlite.If its cheap go 30/70 potting mix perlite! Now that will drain and dry out! the roots need to breathe bro.What happens up top is a reflection of whats happening underneath.Good luck.
ps peat moss tends to stay wet and compact,thats whats causing you problem.Been there done that.Although most mixes will have some peat moss in them in varying degrees.A good potting mix will have additives to encourage drainage like perlite,pummice etc a blend of organic and inorganic.I found cactus mix was too fine and compacted.My tree died in that.Orchid mix is chunky.Coconut husk chips are popular here.Perlite helps prevent compaction over a long period,consistently.

Thanks laidback for the tips. I will keep trying but I gave them all a good watering and I am seeing little tiny growth on some branches now. I am thinking my mix is just not giving a good reading on the meter and I may indeed need a little more water. The water just poors out of the pots. And I still don't understand how my dad's friends do so well with drip on their citrus. I don't know if they will survive the wind we have been having the last 5 days here. Maybe I will try and take some photos and post them if I can get some time.