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Citrus Growers Forum
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Citrus Growers v2.0
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pagnr Citrus Guru
Joined: 23 Aug 2008 Posts: 407 Location: Australia
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Posted: Fri 29 Oct, 2010 6:52 pm |
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Meiwa seems to be very polyembryonic (100%?). Not sure if it is any use as the pollen parent. |
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Lemandarangequatelo Citruholic
Joined: 01 Mar 2010 Posts: 485 Location: UK
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Posted: Fri 29 Oct, 2010 7:58 pm |
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tidusid wrote: | Alright lol, Yeah I explored this forum thoroughly before I ever got my membership approved.
By the way, I just had my first Pummelo ever. It was from the supermarket, but it was AMAZING. It smells like flowers and tastes like fruit punch! lol
I'm guessing its Hirado Buntan maybe. Green skin and pink pulp.
John Panzarella has 15 gallon one for sale I almost picked up last week, hmm. Maybe I'll take a trip down there monday : ) |
Pummelos are awesome, I think your one sounded very fresh and well ripened. I'm forced to buy unripened ones shipped from China and Israel. I think they pick them very unripe so that the seeds are tiny and inoffensive. Me personally I couldn't care less if there are seeds as long as the fruit tastes great, and now that I'm a citruholic I want the seeds lol.
You live near John Panzarella? Lucky you! I'd like to visit his citrus paradise. He lets you pick out the tree you want to buy doesn't he. Go for that Hirado Buntan on monday, I would! lol |
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Lemandarangequatelo Citruholic
Joined: 01 Mar 2010 Posts: 485 Location: UK
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Posted: Fri 29 Oct, 2010 8:07 pm |
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Hydrobell and pagnr thanks for commenting and the info. From my own small experience I observed Meiwa was at least 70% polyembryonic, with the vast majority being 2 embryos per seed and occassionally 3. Calamondin is 100% polyembrionic with up to 5 embryos per seed. |
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tidusid Citruholic
Joined: 25 Oct 2010 Posts: 71 Location: League City, 9A, South of Houston, TX
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Posted: Fri 29 Oct, 2010 8:39 pm |
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Lemandarangequatelo wrote: | tidusid wrote: | Alright lol, Yeah I explored this forum thoroughly before I ever got my membership approved.
By the way, I just had my first Pummelo ever. It was from the supermarket, but it was AMAZING. It smells like flowers and tastes like fruit punch! lol
I'm guessing its Hirado Buntan maybe. Green skin and pink pulp.
John Panzarella has 15 gallon one for sale I almost picked up last week, hmm. Maybe I'll take a trip down there monday : ) |
Pummelos are awesome, I think your one sounded very fresh and well ripened. I'm forced to buy unripened ones shipped from China and Israel. I think they pick them very unripe so that the seeds are tiny and inoffensive. Me personally I couldn't care less if there are seeds as long as the fruit tastes great, and now that I'm a citruholic I want the seeds lol.
You live near John Panzarella? Lucky you! I'd like to visit his citrus paradise. He lets you pick out the tree you want to buy doesn't he. Go for that Hirado Buntan on monday, I would! lol |
Lol yeah, go on google maps and look directions from League City, TX to Lake Jackson, TX. |
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pagnr Citrus Guru
Joined: 23 Aug 2008 Posts: 407 Location: Australia
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Posted: Fri 29 Oct, 2010 10:09 pm |
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quote " meiwa is 70% polyembryonic "
I should have said 100% nucellar, (clonal from the parent), not necessarily also 100% polyembryonic, (multiple embryos per seed). I don't think there are any zygotic seedlings produced from meiwa seeds, I have never found any variation. |
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Lemandarangequatelo Citruholic
Joined: 01 Mar 2010 Posts: 485 Location: UK
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Posted: Sat 30 Oct, 2010 7:37 am |
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pagnr wrote: | quote " meiwa is 70% polyembryonic "
I should have said 100% nucellar, (clonal from the parent), not necessarily also 100% polyembryonic, (multiple embryos per seed). I don't think there are any zygotic seedlings produced from meiwa seeds, I have never found any variation. |
Very interesting, so Meiwa would make a poor mother plant for a hybrid attempt. I hope the same isn't true of Reale Kumquat lol. |
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pagnr Citrus Guru
Joined: 23 Aug 2008 Posts: 407 Location: Australia
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Posted: Sat 30 Oct, 2010 6:27 pm |
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Nagami seems to produce zygotic seedlings, never seen Reale so don't know if it is zygotic or nucellar, or combination. Hopefully pollinating with foreign pollen may overcome any self incompatability/genetic barriers that prevent the Meiwa from producing variants . There may be hidden zygotics produced that never get pollinated, so never develop to seed stage ? Also single seedlings could still be "polyembryonic", if the other embryos in the seed died. True zygotics should be at least somewhat variable, even if self pollenated. |
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Lemandarangequatelo Citruholic
Joined: 01 Mar 2010 Posts: 485 Location: UK
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Posted: Sun 31 Oct, 2010 8:35 am |
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Thanks for the great info pagnr, I find hybridization discussion fascinating. I have a small kumquat tree a foot tall which I'm certain is Nagami (it was labelled "Meiwa" but the fruit looked and tasted exactly like Nagami bought from the store), I will use that also in future hybrid attempts.
Is it possible to store citrus pollen for future use when cultivars are flowering at different times? |
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pagnr Citrus Guru
Joined: 23 Aug 2008 Posts: 407 Location: Australia
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Posted: Wed 03 Nov, 2010 12:28 pm |
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quote," pollen can be collected by drying non-dehisced anthers from unopened flowers over silica gel at room temperature. The dried pollen can then be stored in vials at 4'C until needed. Stored pollen can be applied to the stigma of the female parent via a soft paintbrush." |
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Lemandarangequatelo Citruholic
Joined: 01 Mar 2010 Posts: 485 Location: UK
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Posted: Wed 03 Nov, 2010 10:30 pm |
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pagnr wrote: | quote," pollen can be collected by drying non-dehisced anthers from unopened flowers over silics gel at room temperature. The dried pollen can then be stored in vials at 4'C until needed. Stored pollen can be applied to the stigma of the female parent via a soft paintbrush." |
Thanks for the great info. If I've understood this correctly... the anthers are collected from unopened flowers before they split and release their pollen. The anthers are placed on the silica gel at room temperature, where their outer skin dries and splits open releasing the pollen inside. The pollen is allowed to dry on the silica gel and then stored at 4C till needed.
A few quick questions spring to mind:
Is there a time limit on the viability of the stored pollen, or can it be stored indefinately?
How long does the pollen take to dry on the silica gel? How can you tell it's dry?
Why must the pollen be taken from non-dehisced anthers from unopened flowers, rather than anthers with their pollen already released from open flowers?
I've done a google search but it is very hard to find this information. |
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pagnr Citrus Guru
Joined: 23 Aug 2008 Posts: 407 Location: Australia
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Posted: Fri 05 Nov, 2010 6:27 pm |
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The reason to keep away from open flowers is to avoid any extra foreign pollen that was transferred in by insects before you arrived with your brush. If you have many different Citrus flowering and high insect activity, there may be multiple pollen types already on your target flower. Then your A cross B, will actually be A cross X?.
In reality this is probably unlikely, depending on the actual flowering and insect activity at the time. and you can isolate the pollen parent plant or bag pollen source flowers and use the naturally released pollen.
However if you want to be 100% sure of A cross B, you should follow procedures.
Not sure if there are any other reasons to use non dehisced flowers. Perhaps the "immature" pollen stores better, I think released pollen has a few hours/days short life in the open air, so probably it may already be half spent in many cases if collected from open flowers?
The other storage/ pollen life questions are probably much the same in other vegetable crop breeding, Capsicum, Eggplant etc ??? From memory pollen has a reasonable storage life, but as for seeds, the kitchen fridge is not always ideal long term. |
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pagnr Citrus Guru
Joined: 23 Aug 2008 Posts: 407 Location: Australia
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Posted: Sat 06 Nov, 2010 1:18 am |
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here are some general quotes from Carol Deppe, "breed your own vegetable varieties"1993
"most pollen becomes viable just shortly before the anther dehisces(sheds it) In general, it is normally maximally fertile and viable right after it is shed.
Some pollen continues to be viable for several days, other pollen is dead within a few hours.......freshly shed pollen is moist looking and more brightly colored than old pollen
"some kinds of pollen can be stored for long periods, and some can't...
when I want to store pollen for just a few days, I usually put freshly shed pollen or even whole flowers that have just shed pollen in a vial or plastic bag to prevent them from drying out. Then I put the container in the fridge.
Most, though not all,pollen will keep for a few days to a week or two in this fashion.
When I want to store pollen for longer periods, I usually desiccate and freeze it. I put the pollen( or anthers with pollen ,but without the filaments)
in gelatin capsules(kind used for drugs and vitamins, many but not all pharmacies sell empty gel caps, ?pagnr says health shops?
I put the open gel caps on a layer of silica gel, seal the jar, and leave it at room temp for a few hours. Then I open the jar, close the gel caps, put them in a vial with more silica gel, cap it and put it in the freezer.
To do a cross with frozen pollen, I open the vial and remove one capsule. Then I open the gel cap andleave it lying around at room temp for an hour or two at room temp so that the pollen or anther can rehydrate before I use it."
pagnr says, this is general info for hobby plant breeders, covering a wide variety of species. Citrus is probably not any harder than most crops, but it may be worth more research about it's specific techniques. |
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Lemandarangequatelo Citruholic
Joined: 01 Mar 2010 Posts: 485 Location: UK
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Posted: Sat 06 Nov, 2010 10:15 am |
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Pagnr thank you very much for the information, much appreciated. I will try both methods you posted next time my citrus flower. I will definately keep looking into this. If I find more info I will post it here. |
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Lemandarangequatelo Citruholic
Joined: 01 Mar 2010 Posts: 485 Location: UK
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Posted: Mon 21 Feb, 2011 12:14 pm |
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Update on the cross pollinated fruitlet. It is still the size of a pea, hasn't grown any bigger, but it is now turning orange. When I bought the tree last year there were fruitlets like this already on the tree and they never grew and eventually fell off. I hope this doesn't happen to this fruitlet! |
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Lemandarangequatelo Citruholic
Joined: 01 Mar 2010 Posts: 485 Location: UK
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Posted: Sat 16 Apr, 2011 5:37 pm |
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Update: the fruitlet is now completely orange but it has grown a little. Hopefully it will grow to full maturity and produce some seeds for me to plant. |
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