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Satsuma and Meyer on their own roots (see pix)?

 
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endeitz



Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 20
Location: TX (8b/a)

Posted: Tue 18 Mar, 2008 1:09 am

This winter was hard on my new citrus trees. I planted a Meyer lemon late in the summer (I know, I know, but the nursery had a sale) and a Satsuma in the spring. They were only protected with a frost blanket and it got down below 20F several nights.

You can see from the picture below (warning, 500K) that the Meyer lost most of its branches. However, when temperatures got warm, some new growth occurred near the base of the plant.

http://nedeeds.googlepages.com/meyer.jpg

First question: is this growth OK to leave, or is it possible that the growth is below a graft? I assume that because there are so many trunks coming from the base of the tree, that it is on its own roots.

Second question: should I prune away all of the non-green wood? Or should I wait to see what happens?

I am asking the same question about my Satsuma. It lost most of its leaves, but again has some growth near the very base. Most of its branches appear to be OK, so I wouldn't mind trimming the new growth at the base if necessary. The picture is below (warning, 300K):

http://nedeeds.googlepages.com/satsuma.jpg

Thanks for your help,

Ed.
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dauben
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Joined: 25 Nov 2006
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Posted: Tue 18 Mar, 2008 1:28 am

It's hard to tell where the graft line is, so I'll defer the question to those with more experience (and better eye sight) than I. However, the one comment I would add is if it is just the rootstock coming up, take up grafting and find someone with some budwood. I lost a Reed Avocado last winter down to the rootstock and although I wasn't able to find any Reed budwood, I did find Haas and Fuerte. The tree now has a Haas bud that I successfully forced and a Fuerte cleft graft that has been alive for about 2 months now.

Anyway, if it turns out that you can't salvage the cultivars, don't fret!! You still have a root system that probably took a couple of years to develop that you can still use.

Phillip
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citrange
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Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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Posted: Tue 18 Mar, 2008 5:13 pm

The Meyers looks to me like two or three rooted cuttings in one pot.
The satsuma could also be a rooted cutting, although perhaps too much soil/compost has been added so the original graft has been covered. I would scrape some of the loose compost away from the base and see if all the branches meet at a point above any roots and possibly above a graft. If so the whole plant should be raised and the surface lowered.
I would also wait a few more weeks before cutting away all dead wood from growing branches.
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endeitz



Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 20
Location: TX (8b/a)

Posted: Tue 18 Mar, 2008 7:01 pm

Thanks for the advice. I will check below the soil line as suggested.

I obviously overestimated the "hardiness" of these trees, at least at this stage in their lives. I will take more drastic measures in covering next winter, if they make it that far.

Cheers,

Ed.
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Laaz
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Joined: 12 Nov 2005
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Location: Dorchester County, South Carolina

Posted: Tue 18 Mar, 2008 8:40 pm

Hines nursery in TX roots many of their citrus. I have both a Seto satsuma & meyer that I bought long ago from Hines & both are rooted cuttings. The Seto is now about 10 ft tall & doing fine. The Meyer is also over 10 ft tall & blooming like crazy. Both will do fine on their own roots.

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rreeves



Joined: 12 Jun 2006
Posts: 16
Location: League City, TX & Floresville TX (Zone 8b)

Posted: Wed 19 Mar, 2008 1:00 pm

Ed,

Your photo's appear to show that your lemon and satsuma are most likely on their own roots. I've found that most lemons purchased in Texas are not grafted and to a lessor degree the same seems true w/ Satsuma. Clearly, your sprouts appear unifoliate (as opposed to the 3 leaves for poncirus). The lemon is especially quick to recover from cold damage so you will probably do ok w/ it, but satsuma seems slower. I suggest you attempt to graft some meyer budwood on a poncirus (higher is better up to about 2 or 3 ft). The poncirus rootstock appears to really help satsuma hardiness in south central and east Texas.

Additionally, I recommend you not cut away dead wood until about May if you can stand it. Apparently, citrus resent being pruned after frost/freeze damage.

Lastly, I recommend you try sunquat, yuzuquat, nippon orangequat or thomasville citrangequat in lieu of lemon if you continue to get frost damage (by the way, the larger the tree, the better the plant takes frost). Not much out there to sub for a satsuma except maybe one that is grafted high on the trifoliate rootstock or maybe one of those "10 degree" tangerines.

Let me know if you need source information for any of these in Texas.

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Skeeter
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Joined: 23 Jul 2006
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Location: Pensacola, FL zone 9

Posted: Wed 19 Mar, 2008 5:20 pm

I agree with Bob on the pruning, make your cuts on wood that you are sure is dead--about 1/4 to 1/2 inch past any green wood.

I am surprised at you satsuma getting damaged--my sister did not even cover her trees and with a low around 17, it barely lost any leaves.

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endeitz



Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 20
Location: TX (8b/a)

Posted: Fri 21 Mar, 2008 5:15 pm

rreeves wrote:
Ed,

Your photo's appear to show that your lemon and satsuma are most likely on their own roots. <snip>



I appreciate the input from you guys. I am hoping you are right.

Quote:


Additionally, I recommend you not cut away dead wood until about May if you can stand it. Apparently, citrus resent being pruned after frost/freeze damage.




Thanks for the advice. I did prune some of the "shriveled" tips, but had not pruned most of what appears to me to be dead. I can definitely stand to wait until May.

Quote:


Lastly, I recommend you try sunquat, yuzuquat, nippon orangequat or thomasville citrangequat in lieu of lemon if you continue to get frost damage (by the way, the larger the tree, the better the plant takes frost). Not much out there to sub for a satsuma except maybe one that is grafted high on the trifoliate rootstock or maybe one of those "10 degree" tangerines.



I have a "lemonquat" which I think is similar to the sunquat. It did fare better than the other two, with barely any leaf drop (although the fruit was lost to the freeze). I am going to try my current citrus for another couple of years before giving up and going to something even hardier.

However, I would like to know what sources there are in TX for some of the hardier citrus. Besides Satsuma and Meyer, I hardly see any at the local nursery. I am always disappointed that I can't get shipments from Stan (in SC), since he seems to specialize in these hardier varieties.

Ed.
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endeitz



Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 20
Location: TX (8b/a)

Posted: Fri 21 Mar, 2008 5:25 pm

Skeeter wrote:
I agree with Bob on the pruning, make your cuts on wood that you are sure is dead--about 1/4 to 1/2 inch past any green wood.

I am surprised at your satsuma getting damaged--my sister did not even cover her trees and with a low around 17, it barely lost any leaves.


The Satsuma didn't see any wood damage, but did lose most of its leaves. It's the Meyer lemon that really got crushed, probably because it is so immature, or just less hardy in general. I think the Central Texas climate can be pretty harsh, since (at least in the semi-rural subdivision I live) the temperatures can drop dramatically at night following a pretty warm day, so the citrus don't necessarily reach the kind of dormancy they might in other climates.

I had put cages around the trees and covered with a frost blanket (those "breathable" spun polyester cloths) that probably did next to nothing for protection. In fact, since I left them on during the day, they may have contributed to overly warm daytime temperatures. On the other hand, they do block UV, so there is some tradeoff there. Perhaps I will try without the frost blankets next winter and see how it goes.

Ed.
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Skeeter
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Posted: Fri 21 Mar, 2008 8:37 pm

My Lisbon lemon came throught the freeze with little damage, but I had it covered with 3 layers--sheets, burlap and a tarp, a swimming pool of water under it and 2 strings of Christmas lights--the Christmas lights will add a lot of heat when covered.

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mrtexas
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Joined: 02 Dec 2005
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Posted: Sat 22 Mar, 2008 12:14 am

I don't think you have much of a chance of a meyer lemon surviving very long in central Texas without a lot of covering and protecting. You have a slightly better chance with the satsuma. Austin area? If in Austin, the limestone soil is not friendly to citrus growing.
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endeitz



Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 20
Location: TX (8b/a)

Posted: Sat 22 Mar, 2008 10:20 am

Skeeter wrote:
My Lisbon lemon came throught the freeze with little damage, but I had it covered with 3 layers--sheets, burlap and a tarp, a swimming pool of water under it and 2 strings of Christmas lights--the Christmas lights will add a lot of heat when covered.


Can you leave it covered like this constantly over the winter months, or does the covering need to be removed periodically (i.e. for light or air circulation)?
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endeitz



Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 20
Location: TX (8b/a)

Posted: Sat 22 Mar, 2008 10:27 am

mrtexas wrote:
I don't think you have much of a chance of a meyer lemon surviving very long in central Texas without a lot of covering and protecting. You have a slightly better chance with the satsuma. Austin area? If in Austin, the limestone soil is not friendly to citrus growing.


Yes, I think I learned my lesson regarding protection. School of hard knocks and all that.

The soil around here is somewhat alkaline, although my particular property has a pretty wide variation in pH. I made some adjustment to the soil pH before planting the citrus. They are also planted in slightly elevated beds to improve drainage (which also makes them more prone to freezing conditions).
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mrtexas
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Posted: Sat 22 Mar, 2008 4:13 pm

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Skeeter
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Joined: 23 Jul 2006
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Location: Pensacola, FL zone 9

Posted: Sat 22 Mar, 2008 5:30 pm

You can't leave it covered with sheets or a tarp, but you can leave outdoor Christmas lights on the tree ready to plug in and a bank of water under the tree (water releases heat when it freezes--80 calories per gram). You could leave the frost blanket or a shade cloth cover in place and both of those will retain some heat from the Christmas lights, but both will let in sufficient light.

The other option if you want is to install a couple micro-jet sprinkler heads--one directed at the trunk and one in the canopy. With this system, you may loose the outer limbs in hard freezes, so if you have a hard freeze every year it may not help much.

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