Skeet, with all due respect, if over a working career a dozen people are killed from pesticides, I seriously doubt that a better safety record could possibly ever be achieved. Many more people than that are killed every 10 seconds (probably every 5 seconds) on the highways of the United States, should we ban cars? . It goes back to "If it saves just one life, wouldn't it be worth it", and the answer is NO - NO - NO. Life is full trade offs, and will always be full of trade offs. If we outlawed peddle bicycles in the United States, and it saved just one life, wouldn't it be worth it. -- NO. It is not that it takes 3 or 4 sprays of a worthless commercial insecticide, it should have never came to that point. Where does all this nannyism end? Government is fast getting to be big brother, and EPA is leading the way. I'm done with this topic. - Millet (1,364-)

There are some places now that do not allow wood burning. Northern Utah on some winter days bands on wood burning. This is to keep the air clean for all. And of course there are exceptions.

Products that are very potent are fine to use. But I do believe they need to be readily decompose over time and not build up in the environment. Anything that builds up over time has the potential to cause problems.

> If you hate America so much, why do you post on American based sites?
First I don't hate America nor Americans. Like any human of the world some are good and some are bad (depending on who judges ).
Same thing for the country. Some acts are good and some are bad. Be sure that I judge the French politics with the same rigor.
Here I point the fact that some firms of some countries (USA are among them) can sale to foreigners what is consider as bad for their own inhabitants. Witch I don't consider very moral.
I am on this forum because I love Citrus like every one of you. No matter where the computers are.
If you look closely, on this forum, USA is continuously criticized By Americans, and I often defend your country.

> I am sure the chinese are making much worse toxins in africa.
SURE!

We are a little off topic. Sorry Laaz, but it is important to be well understood.

Regards.

Thank you Ned for the on topic information. That is what I was seeking. There are some issues that are pertinent in the tangets that developed with my original question.....Im all for the sane discussion and I opine that in some cases the real "truth" needs to be uncovered before the folks with the ability to make or break products move to do either. Like most folks....we are what we choose to be.............be that American or other....and we all have our opinions...............I am of the opinion that America does and sells what is good for America...................be that pest reducing chemicals or good bourbon...........................Thanks for the input guys..................David

Didn't mean to get involved in such a controversy by simply simply trying to answer a question!

Millet, I have held a pesticide liscence for many years, so I know what is involved in obtaining one. I agree that the process in getting one is easy, but my point was that in SC, and I assume other states, one is required.

Here is a link to Wikipedia's take on Chlorpyrifos.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorpyrifos

Ned

I am really not surprised at all to see the word "FINES" in conjunction with the word "EPA". EPA's vast army of lawyers, main aim is to obtain as many fines, and as large fines, as they possibly can from American Industry. As you can tell, I am no admirer of EPA (Ending Profit In America). - Millet (1,362-)

Everyone knows that Rachel Carson killed those millions of people. That liberal woman!!

Millet, you obviously feel your convenience is worth at least a dozen lives. I'm just curious--how many lives do you think it is worth to be able to kill bugs with just one application instead of 3?

Skeet, it is not a case of having to make 3 spray applications. No farmer that I am familiar with, at least within 100 miles of my place, would ever, ever, ever think of using a WORTHLESS pyrethroid "pesticide". For commercial farming, pyrethrum, both natural and synthetic, are a joke. I don't know if you just happened to suggest pyrethrums, or if they actually are EPAs suggested substitute for real pesticides, but if they are EPAs suggested substitute, than people at EPA need to leave their court room and stop punishing America's job produces, and visit the real world. - Millet (1,361-)

EPA does not suggest substitutes. I am not familiar with what pesticides commercial farmers in this are use, but synthetic pyrethriods are very commonly used by commercial pesticide applicators on yards in our area and they are the most common type found in the garden centers around here. I have found them to be very effective in my garden when I have to use pesticides which is rarely. I use soap when I can to kill most bugs. We use Bengal Spray inside the house and find it very effective--it is a synthetic pyrethroid.

My point is that Dursban kills people in addition to bugs. Farming was profitable before Dursban and still is even if the substitutes are not as effective--they are obviously effective enough.

We are trying to register AZ41 as insecticide, fungicide, and nematicide at EPA. Initially, they would want us to undergo the complete data set toxicity testing which is very costly.

They initially want to treat the product like it is made from synthetic chemicals. All our ingredients are natural organic chemicals produced by nature, and nature has known our components, has equilibrated with it, and is in harmony with it for the past several hundred million years. Compared to synthetic products, the residual effects are unknown because of the limited time testing that we do to matter at all.

Our ingredients are being used by humans daily, even taken orally. And I was at a loss why it should require tremendous resources on our part so that it can be registered as a pesticide.

We have several third party testimonials from various crop growers all over the world, and several independent scientific studies on the properties of our products, but the EPA lawyers may argue that it could be illegal to cite them because our product is not EPA registered for such uses.

EPA lists a very narrow range of products that are exempt from full registration and these included Canola Oil, Cedar Oil, Cinnamon oil, rosmarinic acid, sodium chloride. If the ingredients are not in the list, even with mountains of scientific evidence of non-toxicity, it will not be exempted from being labeled as a possible toxic product.

I looked up pesticide use data in CA for 2007-- the latest yr available:
http://www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/pur/pur07rep/top100_ais.pdf

It is obvious that chloropyrifos is not banned--just restricted--as there was about 8 million pounds applied in 2007.

Joe, I am sure you are frustrated with the difficulty of getting AZ41 registered for use as a pesticide, but there are many "natural" compounds that are very toxic. I can only hope that your company does well enough that the cost of registration becomes chump change. The real test for me regarding AZ41 on citrus will come when the Leaf miners start--I sure hope it works as well to irritate and repell them as it seems to do with insects like the whiteflies.