Citrus Growers Forum

Tropheus76 · Posted: Tue 19 Mar, 2013 2:25 pm

I live in a weird zone, 9b, in Florida. In winter we are about 10 degrees cooler than Cocoa Beach and Orlando despite being 20 minutes from either since we are in a river basin. Unfortunately this doesnt carry over to summertime temps grrrr.

Anyway, I am wanting to plant the above mentioned trees and vines.
Figs: I already have a Celeste although that final(I hope) cold spike a few weeks burned off all the new leaves, but more are coming. Since I have several trees that did not survive the winter I have a few open spaces. How big will fig trees get? Can they be pruned to stay in the 15' diameter range without reducing production for that size? Any other cultivars that would do well in my environment? I would like to have 2 or 3 other kinds if possible.

Pears: I have an Asian pear currently(about as specific as I can get) and would like a few more of the fruiting variety for my driveway. What kind of options do I have? Same size questions as above, although I think they are roughly in the same catagory as orange trees.

Grapes: I wish to make wine as a hobby and have and will have more space for wire trellises in the near future. What are good wine making grapes that will actually grow down here and be disease resistant?

Kiwi: Are there any kiwis that will grow this far south? I have done searches and hear this and that so I figured I would ask you guys.

mrtexas · Posted: Tue 19 Mar, 2013 3:49 pm

Tropheus76 wrote:

Grapes: I wish to make wine as a hobby and have and will have more space for wire trellises in the near future. What are good wine making grapes that will actually grow down here and be disease resistant?

None that I know of. I don't consider muscadines good for much besides jelly. There are several hybrids of muscadine and european grapes developed in Florida like Orlando seedless. You might try them. Victoria red is a new one from Texas. All of the following are hard to find:

'-Blanc de Boies Released in 1988 by the University of Florida, this variety is currently perhaps the highest quality named winegrape variety that has resistance to PD. This grape is the result of a cross made in 1968 by Dr. John Mortensen which was selected as H18-37 for further evaluation in 1974. It has a complex lineage which includes Vitis vinifera, smal-liana, simpsoni, labrusca and an unknown open-pollinated selection thought to be V. lincecumi.
In addition to being resistant to Pierce's dis-ease, 'Blanc du Bois' has reported resistance to downy mildew, Isariopsis leaf blight and grape leaf folder. 'Blanc du Bois' averaged approxi-mately 5.5 tons per acre under initial evalua-tions and ripened in hot climates with good acid retention. Clusters average 133 grams with 45-55 berries per cluster which average 2.9 grams each. Berries are round, light green, slipskin, with a pleasant muscat flavor. While 'Blanc du Bois' is susceptible to other fungal pathogens, the loose cluster architecture makes it less prone to sour rot complex than more tight clustered varieties. 'Blanc du Bois' typically ripens in early July along the Texas Gulf Coast.

'Black Spanish'- Also known as 'Lenoir' and 'Jacquez', 'Black Spanish' is considered the current highest quality red wine grape variety that is tolerant to PD. The parentage and his-tory of 'Black Span-ish' are a subject of debate, and some believe its history goes back several hundred years. We do know that 'Black Spanish' has produced high yields under severe PD pressure in South Texas since 1889. Vines of 'Black Spanish' are moderately vigorous, and clusters are large and compact with small berries. Juice from 'Black Spanish' is very highly pigmented high in tannins and acidity lending some wine makers to use juice for pro-duction of high quality port style wines. 'Black Spanish is also used for red wine production, but enologists work to come up with winery techniques to deal with the overpowering acid-ity. While 'Black Spanish' is typically grown successfully on its own roots, it is subject to iron chlorosis in alkaline soils. 'Black Spanish' typically ripens in mid to late July in Texas coastal regions. 'Favorite' is another variety very similar to, and reportedly is an open polli-nated seedling of 'Black Spanish'. Some con-sider the fruit to be of superior quality, but commercial availability of 'Favorite' is quite limited.

'Victoria Red'- A recent joint release by the University of Arkansas, Tarkington Vineyards and Texas AgriLife Extension Service, Victoria Red is a PD tolerant, seeded table grape that produces good yields of high quality attractive fruit. Evaluated as Arkansas 1475, Victoria 4 Red was bred in 1971 and is the result of a cross between Ark 1123 X ‘Exotic. Although its paternal parent (Exotic) is purely Vitis vi-nifera, the female parent is a derivation of largely French-American Hybrids produced in France in the late 1800s. While neither of the parents exhibit resistance or tolerance to Pierces disease, there are several ancestors within the complex lineage of Ark 1123 that have repeatedly been shown to exhibit sus-tained field tolerance to Xylella fastidiosa. Tolerant ancestors include Villard Blanc (S.V. 12-375), Jacquez (Black Spanish, Lenoir), Herbemont, as well as the native Texas spe-cies Vitis berlandieri. 'Victoria Red' has survived PD for over 25 years with extremely high PD pressure at Tark-ington Vineyards near Victoria and has pro-duced reliable crops of high quality fruit. While the primary value of this variety is for home fresh fruit production, this variety may well have a place as a neutral blending wine grape. With soluble solids up to 25º brix, Vic-toria Red may help Gulf Coast wineries source a higher portion of their fruit from local vine-yards.

'Herbemont'- Bred and propagated by Nicholas Herbemont (1771-1839) of South Carolina and France, 'Herbemont' is pur-portedly a hybrid of Vitis vinifera, borquiniana, and aestivalis. 'Herbemont' has long been valued as a reliable producer of wine grapes and the vines are resistant to PD, phylloxera and sev-eral fungal pathogens. Along with 'Black Spanish' this variety has been heavily relied upon by Val Verde winery for the production of port wines and is also used at the Maderia win-ery at Parras, Coahuila and at the Ferrino Win-ery at Cuatro Cienegas, Coahuila. Herbemont has also been referred to as the "brown grape" throughout the southeast and produces clear juice for white wine. While this variety has been widely used for perhaps 200 years, there is little written record comparing wine quality to that of modern cultivated varieties.
Other Resistant/Tolerant Varieties

Other PD resistant or tolerant vines are avail-able such as 'Miss Blanc', 'Miss Blue', 'Mid-South', 'Orlando' 'Seedless', 'Roucaneuf', 'Daytona', 'Conquestador', 'Stover' and 'Lake Emerald'. While these can be grown without fear of loss due to PD, the ability of these varie-ties to successfully compete in the commercial marketplace is questionable. There are how-ever at least two ongoing breeding programs using classical techniques that are producing tolerant winegrape seedlings that are under evaluation in Texas. Of special note is the important finding of Dr. Andy Walker, grape breeder at U.C. Davis, that all of the genes for PD resistance in the wild species Vitis arizonica are all located on a sin-gle locus. This means that by using marker as-sisted selection, the time needed to produce and screen seedlings that are resistant has been greatly reduced. Dr. Walker has pro-duced a number of breeding lines currently under evaluation in California that have 87%-97% vinifera parentage. Seven of these 87% vinifera lines are currently under evaluation in Texas with the intention of identifying resis-tant varieties without the color and flavor flaws associated with American varieties.
http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/fruit-nut/files/2010/10/pd-grapes.pdf

GT · Posted: Thu 21 Mar, 2013 12:40 am

Tropheus76,

I made couple gallons out of Black Spanish last year. The wine turned out pretty well (we prefer semi-dry to semi-sweet ones) with good taste, nice color, and some natural carbonation. I did not try making a dry wine though, so cannot assess that. Wink

Good luck!

babranch · Posted: Thu 21 Mar, 2013 2:43 am

Tropheus76,

Most of the varieties that mrtexas mentioned will do well in your area if you are willing to spray for diseases such as anthracnose. Of those listed I can tell you that Blanc du Bois, Black Spanish, Stover, Orlando Seedless, and Herbemont are all susceptible to anthracnose. Conquistador and Lake Emerald have been the least susceptible of those listed, but it takes time for Conquistador to get established if it is on its own roots. The other obstacle that you may run into with some of the varieties is that they are not resistant to all strains of PD. Roucaneuf and some of the other French hybrids and Munson hybrids that have been reported to be resistant in Texas have shown to be susceptible to Pierce's Disease in Florida and Georgia.

Don't discount the muscadines. They may not make a dry wine that would go over we'll in France, but they do make tasty dessert wines. The two primary varieties of muscadines used for wine are Noble (dark) and Carlos (white). The only commercially available hybrid between bunch grapes and muscadines in Southern Home. It is great for fresh eating and jelly, but the diglucoside pigments in the skins will oxidize and cause the purple colored wine to turn brown.

Most of what Lowes and Home Depot sells as far grapevines are mislabeled. There is a guy named John Sirvent in Florahome that makes wine and sells winemaking equipment and grapevines. I've used him as a source for both and he sells true-to-type plants. Another good source is Grapes of Kath in Sebring. Here are their websites:

Grapes of Kath - http://www.grapesofkath.com/
Sirvent's Vineyard - http://www.sirventsvineyard.com/

Tropheus76 · Posted: Thu 21 Mar, 2013 2:34 pm

Well everything is pointing towards Muscadines in my area, even the actual commercial wineries. Sweet is fine, I like sweet wine over dry anyway. I normally brew mead, wine is the next project after a Polish Great Mead gets to fermenting for the next 2 or three years.

So what about pears. Which have low chill hours and actually taste decent? Like I said, my area gets cooler than everywhere else in winter(expecting low 40s-late 30s tonight in fact).

Kiwis even an option or am I wasting my time?

Fascist Nation · Posted: Thu 21 Mar, 2013 7:53 pm

Tropheus76 wrote:

I live in a weird zone, 9b, in Florida. ....
Anyway, I am wanting to plant the above mentioned trees and vines. [Fig, grape, pears, and kiwi ]

I too live in 9b only much drier, higher elevation 1,100 ft. (ranges in county cities from 735 to 2,400 ft.), 33 degrees longitude, 300-350 chills. So what I have to say is based upon my experiences here. I would check out Florida's Just Fruit and Exotics nursery.

Figs: Grow great. Try Black Jack if you want small. You can keep any tree to any size through pruning. I have seen 25 ft. tall figs. We have problems with beetles getting into the fig through the eye (they sleep overnight) which spoils the fruit so generally we only grow closed (small) eye figs.

grapes: No experience with wine grapes. Seedless ones grow great here, some better than others. Thompson, Flame and Blueberry are some of the best and will even thrive up against western facing block walls. Some need western shade in the summer. You would have to deal with rot there I suspect and maybe look into rootstock for salinity and disease resistance.

pears: European pears generally don't do well here because they fruit in July through Sept. when the high temps are pretty hard on any fruiting, texture and flavor as a general rule. Asian Pears fare better. Nice thing about the high temps is Fireblight while here is not a problem once temps get above 85F.

kiwi: Surprisingly a lot of varieties do well here. I'd try Issia hardy (self fertile), but be aware most kiwis are sexed and require a compatible male for up to 8 females.

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