Three years ago (March 2009) I posted my concerns about my Satsuma tangerine on the Welcome Forum. The description I gave it them is the same as it looks today. It doesn't look healthy, although it produced lots and lots of wonderful fruit this year. Last year it had almost no fruit but I understand that's normal.

I still give it citrus food 3x a year, try to water it correctly, mulched with composted horse manure once.

I just bought 10 pounds of cornmeal to broadcast as Joe Real suggested back in 2009 and I never did. I haven't put it out yet.

You'll be able to tell from my pictures my concerns. I can post more pictures if that would help.

I see the labels I made in Photobucket didn't come with the pictures.......first picture shows how much of it is covered with yellow leaves, 2nd picture shows a leaf which makes up close to 50% of the leaves,3rd picture shows a nice green leaf that is in the back in the shade, and last picture shows the mottling on much of the branches.

Thanks

Ginny in San Jose, Zone 9

[/img]


[img]

[/img]


[img]

[/img]

It looks like a manganese deficiency, and a pretty bad one. The symptoms for a manganese deficiency are: ---newest leaves with green veins AND WITH green border areas to the sides of the veins, on an otherwise yellow leaf, and with leaves the normal size.---

Do you know the pH of the soil that your tree is growing in? Manganese is not soluble under higher pH conditions. You can purchase a manganese chelate and foliar spray the tree. Apply all sprays in the cool of the evening. If you cannot find a chelate, which is the best form, then try to find a manganese sulfate. Does the fertilizer that you apply contain trace minerals? Cornmeal is not going to help this tree's manganese deficiency, nor is manure. - Millet (320 BO-)

Agreed, manganese deficiency.

Third confirmation, and this is our classic problem here in California - Manganese deficiency, most pronounced after our cold, wet winter rains. You'll see this get worse in January through March. Because our soils are a little on the alkaline side, that, in combination with manganese-poor soils and colder soil temps, our citrus are challenged to take up micronutrients. You should consider a foliar micronutrient application at least once a month starting in November. Then, in January/February, start applying fertilizer with micronutrients as well as a soil micronutrient drench or granular application. I have significant Manganese issues in S. California every winter into spring myself.

I'll agree that there is manganese deficiency there, but there is also zinc deficiency mixed in (evidenced by the smaller newest leaves). It's common for both to appear together, especially in high-pH soils.

Dr. Manners, I would expect ALL micronutrients to be deficient here at this time of year. Most predominantly manganese, but zinc, too. The only micronutrient we usually do not have so much of an issue with is iron, as soils in California in general are not deficient in iron (now, that's a huge generalization, as the state of California is a big place, but that's a general consensus). Our soils are not really "high-pH". For example, my soil pH is about 6.9 to 7.1. Pretty neutral. Most California soils are around this pH in general (again, a qualified "in general"). It is the combination of the colder soil temps and that pH that are our culprit with micronutrients being locked up. Combine that locking up with being manganese-poor, and you get leaves that look like this. What is surprising to me, however, is you usually see this either in very young citrus that have yet to develop a really significant root structure, or mature trees that have been seriously neglected. I'm right next to an abandoned 80 acre Valencia orange orchard that doesn't show this extreme micronutrient deficiency. I'm thinking that something else may be up with this tree's root structure.

Would it be helpful for me to take more pictures?

Thanks for your help.

Ginny

Ginny, what does the ground look like below the tree? How much is it getting watered at the drip line? How frequently are you fertilizing at the drip line? The tree does really look to be declining from what I can see, but more photos would help. Can you take one from a little further away, so we can see the whole tree, and then some of the area under the tree? Maybe that would help.

Actually, I think your tree's problems have been identified. The action to correct the problem is to apply the needed manganese and zinc trace elements that are deficient. - Millet (319 BO-)

As long as you don't have gopher activity, Ginny (Millet, this is a problem for us here in California). And, 3 fertilization applications may not be enough. start in January, and then fertilize every 2 months through October. See if that and the foliar micronutrient applications will help green up your tree. And make sure you don't have anything growing under your drip line, extend the watering to the drip line and fertilize at the drip line (all these things would be visible with a photo of the ground under the tree, Millet, which is why I asked for those photos.) Photos of the ground under the tree would show more info that might make a difference.

Hi to All,

Here's more information:

The ph is 6.5; I took 4 samples in different areas.

The last few times I fertilized in the past couple of years, I put it around the drip line, prior to that I just broadcast it under the entire tree out to the dripline.

When I have fertilized 2-3 times a year for the past 25+ years I am sure it was a citrus fertilizer. I know most recently I used Dr Earth and now have Vigoro Citrus and Avocado fertilizer which states it has "minors." I tried to find online a listing of the "minors" to print out but no luck and there is too much on the bag itself to copy.

Vigoro says to use 3 cups for a 8x8 area; My area is 8x7 that I have access to. It says to repeat at 4-6 week intervals.

Could the fact that 1/3 of the dripline is in the neighbors yard in the middle of an ivy patch be a factor here? Their ivy is all along the back fence where my tree backs up to.

Regarding watering -
We have had almost no rain this winter here in San Jose. I didn't think to water my garden until recent weeks so this tree definitely had much less water this fall and winter than in years past. Of course I water in the summer.

When I water I use a hose end sprayer that runs for about an hour. I move it around to 3 different sections. I have no idea how many gallons it puts down. Patty asked if I am watering at the drip line and I'd have to say it may not get enough water exactly there since the sprayers I use put the water out over a several foot area. Maybe I should put a soaker hose around several times around just the drip line area?

Could you please explain "soil micronutrient drench." What product it is and how much to use and how often.

Could you give the name of a "foliar micronutrient spray?"

Patty what do you mean "what does the ground look like under the tree?" It's covered with composted horse manure I put down a year ago so it looks happy in that regard.



Here are a few more pictures.



Tree from a distance as

[/img]


Here's one of the ground

[img]

Could the swelling at the bottom of the trunk (sorry I only got part of it) be playing any role in this?



[/img]

New leaves I think
[img]

More new leaves I think

[/img]



Thank you all for your help with this and putting out the energy to read all my information. You are the greatest!!

Ginny

Ginny, the bulge at the bottom is where the tree was grafted to it's rootstock and normal.

Not knowing this tree, I cannot know what the root stock is, but if I had to guess by looking at it , I would say Flaying Dragon. Ginny, just go to a good nursery or garden center, and ask for Chelated Manganese & Zinc trace mineral mix combination for foliar spray. In your area there might be a commercial citrus chemical fertilizer supplier, they would surely have it, - Millet (319 BO-)

Okay, pH is fine, good in fact. The panned out photo of your tree looks to me like a tree that needs water! And micronutrients and nitrogen.

Don't worry about the ivy, the tree seems to have plenty of free soil away from competition that I doubt this is a contributor.

The foliar micronutrient spray, as well as the soil drench can be done with the same product. I prefer to use Grow More Citrus Growers Blend. It can be found at just about any good garden center. It can be applied either to the leaves (better during colder weather), and to the soil (better when our soils warm up). You can also help your soils by using Gro Power Organic Soil Conditioner, which is a very large amount of humic acid, which will help to unlock your micronutrients. Vigoro is okay, but I prefer Gro Power Citrus and Avocado Food. Again, has humic acid and the correct amount of micronutrients ("minors"). I would create a nice well at the drip line and a little beyond. Fill with 2 to 3 inches of compost. Toss in some worm castings if you want to be REALLY nice to your tree. Top with bark chips to preserve soil moisture. Add your soil conditioner and fertilizer to the outer edges of the drip line (for right now, I would fertilize every month until you see your tree greening up and significant new flush. Then more to every other month through October. Start back up in January.) Water in well.

Your inconsistent watering may be your issue. Citrus can stand some drought, but perhaps it just did not get quite enough through our rather dry winter this year. On the flip side, they REALLY don't tolerate wet roots. So, depending upon they type of soil you have, you need to figure out how much water is enough for your citrus trees. The "deep watering" concept has gone by the wayside for citrus. Considering that citrus are actually shallow rooted trees, with the feeder roots actually in the top 18 to 24" of soil, you're better off with just regular amounts of water. I use one of those cheap green plastic covered plant stakes you can get at Home Depot or Lowe's. They're pointed at one end. I stick that into the soil. If I can stick it in to about a foot and a half, then I know the soil is moist enough. If not, and if my leaves are starting to look a little limp or cupped, I water. I have my trees on a drip that I can regulate, since I have too many trees to hand-water. I would suggest trying to set up a drip so you don't have to remember to hand water. Much easier on you in the long run

I wanted to see the ground under your tree to make sure there was no lawn or other plants competing with the feeder roots. Or signs of gopher activity. Now, something to think about with your horse manure: Make sure the hay you're feeding your horses is not being treated with an herbicide like Picloram or Roundup. Alfalfa hay frequently is. You can actually be transferring residual herbicide in your compost to your tree. It's a long shot, but since most horses her in California eat mostly alfalfa hay, it's worth mentioned (I raised and showed quarter horses for 25 years in California and Indiana.) If you're sure your horse manure compost is herbicide-free, then definitely continue to use it. I have to buy my compost now, which irks me, but it does help my trees a lot, since my soil here is so organic-poor (it's mainly DG). This is a long shot, but worth mentioning. I can tell you back in Indiana, I had a vegetable garden that was crazy due to all that wonderful compost.

Thanks for all the wonderful information!! I will do all your recommendations except not sure about the drip as I'm completely ignorant about drip. I do have a 2' soil probe which should allow me to check for soil moisture.

I'll let you know when things green up.

Many thanks again,

Ginny