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Citrus Growers Forum Index du Forum -> Tutorials (Grafting and budding)
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noidea



Joined: 28 Jan 2010
Posts: 7

Posted: Tue 16 Feb, 2010 4:12 pm

3 weeks ago, i started grafting my plum tree and it looks bad at first.
cause nothing was going on but then, this week the buds are popping slowly and 8 of the 9 spice graft i did is alive and growing.........

BUT i used saran / "plastic" food wrap to hold then together only. about 10 to 12 layers..of it. (the parafilm didn't come on time so i have to use what i have..)

Question: it been 3 weeks now , and the buds are just starting to open up now...

should i take the wraps off ?
or leave it on ? but for how much longer?
do i use rubber band to hold it afterward?

*************************************
On another note:
Do you think i can graft sugar prune to my asian plum tree or european prune tree?

Appreciate any advice.........thank you
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JoeReal
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Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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Location: Davis, California

Posted: Tue 16 Feb, 2010 6:16 pm

Just leave the wraps on for two to three months unless you are starting to see girdling. Touching the union at this stage will most likely disturb the delicate union and could kill the graft.

It is more desirable to graft sugar prune to European plum tree than to Asian plum trees. Some members report long term incompatibility with European and Asian plum grafts, although, for me, it's been a decade of cross grafting various types of plums, prunes, plumcots, and other hybrids in one tree and still have to see major incompatibility issues. I have a few that died, but primarily due to shading out or diseases and graft incompatibility seemed to be minor issue because I would simply regraft a slow growing cultivar unto a more vigorous branch.
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noidea



Joined: 28 Jan 2010
Posts: 7

Posted: Tue 16 Feb, 2010 9:32 pm

I was thinking about the same thing if i were to take if off now.
the union would be too weak if any and will die soon.

The actual detail of my saran/plastic wrap graft are in 2 sheet of plastic and
about 6 layers/rounds each on each graft.

Should i take off 1 layer or just as you say, leave everything there for
2-3 months.

This is my first time grafting and just very anxious.

**********************
On the side note:

I just did a number of citrus grafts, about 14 of them onto my lemon tree.
It's about 2 weeks now AND with parafilm and rubber band this time (finally came...)
I followed the BARK graft tutorial from here step by step.
hope that takes....
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JoeReal
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Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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Location: Davis, California

Posted: Tue 16 Feb, 2010 10:27 pm

Just leave everything but don't forget about it!

What I usually do with plastic wraps is to tie the end of it in a ribbon loop so that after the union is strong enough, I simply pull the end and everything can unravel.

My only problem with using polyethylene plastic tapes is that I always forget to unravel or remove those tapes, and usually it is too late when I find out, considering the thousands of grafts that I do at various places.

So I always just use parafilm and rubber band, they naturally fall off without any girdling and I simply can forget about them after I graft.
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Hilltop
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Joined: 16 May 2009
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Location: Signal Hill (near Long Beach / LA), CA

Posted: Wed 17 Feb, 2010 12:39 am

Quote:
I would simply regraft a slow growing cultivar unto a more vigorous branch.


If I graft ONTO a slow growing branch, will the scion be slow to grow also?
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JoeReal
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Location: Davis, California

Posted: Wed 17 Feb, 2010 5:24 am

Hilltop wrote:
Quote:
I would simply regraft a slow growing cultivar unto a more vigorous branch.


If I graft ONTO a slow growing branch, will the scion be slow to grow also?


I may not be clear but UNTO as I have meant is A DIRECTION OF INTENT and not simply putting something ON TOP OF another surface. One does not graft by simply putting a scion part ONTO the surface of a stock. It is technically more than that. But I strongly recommend this be the end of grammar policing except when the message don't come across and the message really begged clarification.

I have posted my observations in several threads, especially those topics that addressed balancing a multi-grafted tree. If you have reviewed my answer, a caveat would be that nature will always find a way to surprise you, and occasionally, you'll get contrary results compared to the norm.
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Hilltop
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Location: Signal Hill (near Long Beach / LA), CA

Posted: Wed 17 Feb, 2010 6:11 am

I was not commenting on the grammar. I didn't even realize it said "unto." I merely put "ONTO" in bold to stress that my question was opposite to your statement. I am not questioning your statement. I am only asking a question that would be opposite to your statement.

I have lower, smaller branches on my tree that I am hesitant to graft to thinking that they might not grow very well. I only wanted to know if I grafted to these branches if they'd be slow to grow too.
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JoeReal
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Posted: Wed 17 Feb, 2010 7:20 am

Hilltop wrote:
I was not commenting on the grammar. I didn't even realize it said "unto." I merely put "ONTO" in bold to stress that my question was opposite to your statement. I am not questioning your statement. I am only asking a question that would be opposite to your statement.

I have lower, smaller branches on my tree that I am hesitant to graft to thinking that they might not grow very well. I only wanted to know if I grafted to these branches if they'd be slow to grow too.


I wouldn't recommend using those lower branches as your scion destination. They are prone to self-pruning, which means that at one point in time, the tree would decide to orphan them, especially when they are shaded out for more than half the year, the next year, they'll die back, along with your grafts.

Sometimes we would intentionally graft to these slow growing branches for convenience, and we wanted them to be slow growers, not having to prune for maintenance. But just make sure they'll get an hour of sunshine each day, otherwise, the branch, including your graft will surely die out in the coming years.
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Hilltop
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Posted: Wed 17 Feb, 2010 2:30 pm

Thanks. That is very good to know. I have some grafts from last year that are still green but haven't sprouted yet.

Is lack of sunshine the main reason they fail or does location play an equal role? In other words, if I grafted low and made sure it got plenty of sunshine, will it thrive?
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JoeReal
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Posted: Wed 17 Feb, 2010 7:25 pm

Hilltop wrote:
Thanks. That is very good to know. I have some grafts from last year that are still green but haven't sprouted yet.

Is lack of sunshine the main reason they fail or does location play an equal role? In other words, if I grafted low and made sure it got plenty of sunshine, will it thrive?


Sunshine is surely needed for your grafts to survive. The reason for graft failure could be many other things also, such as incompatibilities. I am assuming that the graft took and then sunshine plays a major role on the subsequent survival of the grafts on the branch that they are grafted to.

Yes, sometimes the grafted cultivars do thrive and revert back to juvenility on the lower branches and could not understand why it does that, but when that happens, it would be good for the grafted cultivar. On a mature tree, most of those grafted on the lower branches, they don't sprout easily, you may have to coax them using GA3 and spray foliar nutrients on the branches to invigorate them. Out of ten that I grafted this way, about one will ultimately become really vigorous like a juvenile sprout. The rest would linger on very slowly as long as they received sunlight but they do bear normal sized fruits. In cases where the drooping fruit laden branches above shades out the lower branches, some portions of the branches would wither and die out, usually those with lousy performing grafts are the first to go.

I lost four grafted cultivars in the lower branches of my multi-grafted tree, because these were shaded out by the apple tree much of the season last year. They bore normal sized fruits last year. I knew this was going to happen since I cannot sacrifice my fruit laden apple tree, so I regrafted some of them higher.
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Hilltop
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Posted: Wed 17 Feb, 2010 9:45 pm

One of my fears of grafting high was that I was afraid I'd top work a tree. I almost did that with my lime tree without realizing it. One day I just went, "Whoa, there are no more existing lime branches." Luckily, more lime branches have since sprung forth.

One idea I have for this year is to prune just below a bud and leave a stump above it and let the buds below that grow. Once those buds get bigger, I'll graft onto the stump above them. That way I won't end up top working the branch. I hope this is a good idea.

As for the lower branches which I seem to have a few of, I'll have to rethink my strategy and plan accordingly. Thanks for the info.
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JoeReal
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Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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Location: Davis, California

Posted: Wed 17 Feb, 2010 9:51 pm

Hilltop wrote:

One idea I have for this year is to prune just below a bud and leave a stump above it and let the buds below that grow. Once those buds get bigger, I'll graft onto the stump above them. That way I won't end up top working the branch. I hope this is a good idea.


Yes its a very good idea and I have recommended such approach in other forums. Some will advice against such idea because they only see the weaker branches formed initially. But many in nature with breakages will also form stronger branches, so this is not a show-stopper objection by others. Make sure to select only the buds that form a strong nice branch, not prone to breakage. Many will come out and there are few that will fit the bill.
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noidea



Joined: 28 Jan 2010
Posts: 7

Posted: Thu 18 Feb, 2010 5:01 am

Dan, reading what you guys are talking about, it hit me like a rock.....
The 12 citrus grafts that i did just 2 weeks ago is just like he say, in the lower part of the lemon tree, cause i didn't want to top it off....

and only one side of the lemon tree faces the sun (good thing i had most of the lower and mid grafts facing that direction. but that means, the other lower and shades are goners.......

Does it mean, i can not graft on the other side of the tree given that it doesn't have much sunlight? and i read many post that i should protect the new graft/scion from the sun......which is true? i am confuse.

new growth are emerging from my lemon tree now, after i pluck it clean of lemon. i wonder would that help in place of the sunlight...more sap..

no wonder the plum graft i did with saran wrap expose to sunlight is growing and the one i did at my own house covered with aluminum are not doing well, no sign of growth....
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JoeReal
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Posted: Thu 18 Feb, 2010 5:13 am

It depends. Protection from the sun is recommended when air temperature is hot, often exceeding 85 deg F and the grafts are new. In early spring or late fall, when max air temperature barely reach 80 deg F, there is no need to protect from the sun. There are cases when you need to protect your grafts from the sun when your budwood have been stored in cold storage for a long time, and they needed acclimatization, and thus the protection for first few days. But if the budwoods are relatively fresh there is no need for protection during the early and late season when it is cooler.

During late spring to entire summer and early fall, it is strongly recommended to protect new grafts that haven't taken when air temperature often exceed 85 deg F. Always remember that the grafts that are wrapped have a greenhouse effect and could exceed the air temperature, often by 5 deg F depending on wind speed, so I placed the limit of air temperature at 85 deg F because the upper limit for temperature in citruses is at 90 deg F for optimum healing. The most optimum temperature on the graft union for rapid graft healing is between 75 to 90 deg F as indicated to me by other citrus grafters and aficionados.

But once the graft takes, you have to expose them slowly to sunlight. There is never a conflict nor confusion if you know the proper context of the various statements of grafting tips. So beware about the other unstated details as to why some activities are a bit confusing.
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noidea



Joined: 28 Jan 2010
Posts: 7

Posted: Thu 18 Feb, 2010 2:24 pm

So, in summary, i should do my citrus graft from the top and facing sunside first?

and maybe i should pick some of the leaves to open up the tree to more light inside. good idea?

On the side note:

my sugar cane if dying? was it because i spray the weed killer/roundup too close or may have touch it...is it possible? but than again, sugar can is a grass type plant......?

and i am not getting much encouragement growing my muscadine vine....
not much progress so far...(i got it from Alabama) i wonder what's the problem?

I am in Fremont, CA by the way.

my lychee tree is dying on me too not long after i put into the ground...
and the Longan tree is just hanging on to dear life........brown leaves and green leaves, fighting back and forth..

I may have to order another lychee and this time, keep it indoors.....
but i think i kill it while trying to protect from the frost over the past 2 months...with plastic tarp...(bad idea....)
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Citrus Growers Forum Index du Forum -> Tutorials (Grafting and budding)
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