Citrus Growers Forum Index Citrus Growers Forum

This is the read-only version of the Citrus Growers Forum.

Breaking news: the Citrus Growers Forum is reborn from its ashes!

Citrus Growers v2.0

cold climate greenhouse heating
Goto 1, 2  Next  
Citrus Growers Forum Index du Forum -> Greenhouse growing
Author Message
brianPA2
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 09 Mar 2013
Posts: 119
Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania (6b)

Posted: Sun 30 Jun, 2013 4:21 pm

I've read that room air should be turned over a minimum of about twice per hour in a greenhouse. In my zone 6a with below-freezing temperatures most of the winter it seems very wasteful to be pumping heated air right out the window. Are there any standard approaches to conserve heat while getting fresh air? Like using a heat exchanger to heat the incoming air with the outgoing air?

I have seen Millet's approach with painted-black, water-filled drums to retain heat but I could not do this as my greenhouse will be above ground and I could not have much water before exceeding the load rating of the structure. However there is a material used for thermal storage that stores more heat for its weight as it melts and freezes at 64.4F. Seems to be cheap and safe to store. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_sulfate#Thermal_storage

This page http://www.agrisk.umn.edu/cache/ARL01480.htm has some other good ideas and mentions that 2.5gal of water per sq foot of glazing is enough, which for me is only 940gal which is well under the load limit of the floor.
Back to top
brianPA2
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 09 Mar 2013
Posts: 119
Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania (6b)

Posted: Tue 02 Jul, 2013 3:02 pm

I researched this more and there is a device known as a Heat Recovery Ventilator that uses outflow air to warm inflow air using while circulating. Depending on how well I am able to insulate the greenhouse I may consider this.
Back to top
Sven_limoen
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 08 Apr 2011
Posts: 305
Location: Vlaams-Brabant, Belgium, Zone 8

Posted: Wed 10 Jul, 2013 11:26 am

I you want to minimize costs (as we all want to do I guess) I would start with the best possible isolation. Styrofoam plates seem to be very usefull resulting in less heat needed from an external source. It's also light weight so that shouldn't bother you like the water barrels.
I think styrofoam plates are a very good choice compared to polyester panels because eve on sunny days the temperature won't go up to much (unlike plasticlike materials).

If you manage that I guess an electrical heating device won't be costing you all that much to keep the greenhouse warm.

You could also choose a standard greenhouse warmer which runs on petrol. Intended for keeping the greenhouse frostfree though combined with isolation could garantuee a nice temperature. DOwnside: petrol exhaust (hough minimal, can't be all that good for citrus).

I must say I see good things coming from your 'Heat Recovery Ventilator'. Just considering the fact that it blows fresh air inside is a very positive thing!

_________________
growing (at least trying): C. sinensis, C. latifolia, C. limon, C. mitis
Back to top
brianPA2
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 09 Mar 2013
Posts: 119
Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania (6b)

Posted: Fri 12 Jul, 2013 2:40 am

Not sure what you mean about styrofoam plates... you mean for wall insulation?

My plan is to get rolled fiberglass for non-glazed walls and tyvek or some sort of vapor barrier to help keep drafts out, and an electric heater + heat recovery vent if heating costs are high enough to justify it.

I'm kind of torn on choosing heat absorbing materials (minimize cost) or light reflecting ones (maximize growth).
Back to top
Sven_limoen
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 08 Apr 2011
Posts: 305
Location: Vlaams-Brabant, Belgium, Zone 8

Posted: Fri 12 Jul, 2013 5:15 am

brianPA2 wrote:
Not sure what you mean about styrofoam plates... you mean for wall insulation?

.


I don't know if styrofoam plates are used in walls. It looks like it but actual styrofoam is a lot cheaper than wallisolation. The ones I mean are those that consist of the well known white balls they also use to isolate chicory plantations. The plates themselves cost a lot less than wallisolation but still has a very good quality when it comes to isolation. A member of the forum used it for underground growing of citrus, using styrofoam plates to cover the roof. Can't really recal who it was at this moment.

Wasn't sure whet the Tyvec was but after looking it up I found out we actually use that stuff at the airport as a bottom cover for the seafood pallets. It should 'breathe' but isn't supposed to leak water like industrial goretex. Smile

I think if your insulation is good enough you should be able to work with the heat recovery alone.

_________________
growing (at least trying): C. sinensis, C. latifolia, C. limon, C. mitis
Back to top
Fascist Nation
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 23 Dec 2011
Posts: 26
Location: Phoenix, AZ 9b, Sunset 13, AHS 11

Posted: Sat 20 Jul, 2013 5:08 pm

I noticed a commercial combined aquaponics/greenhouse heaped their compost up next to their aquaponics tanks (perch) to let the heat of the compost pile heat the tank and the greenhouse. I thought that very clever.

Obviously one only has so much space, but using old out of circulation municipal garbage cans for composting in the greenhouse in winter may be of use in both cutting heating bill and making greenhouse more thermostable.

Of course where I am at cooling the greenhouse, not heating, is the problem.

_________________
Freedom's the Answer!
What's the Question?
Back to top
brianPA2
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 09 Mar 2013
Posts: 119
Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania (6b)

Posted: Sat 20 Jul, 2013 6:40 pm

Fascist Nation wrote:
I noticed a commercial combined aquaponics/greenhouse heaped their compost up next to their aquaponics tanks (perch) to let the heat of the compost pile heat the tank and the greenhouse. I thought that very clever.

Obviously one only has so much space, but using old out of circulation municipal garbage cans for composting in the greenhouse in winter may be of use in both cutting heating bill and making greenhouse more thermostable.

Of course where I am at cooling the greenhouse, not heating, is the problem.


This is interesting. I read about the guy heaping compost but immediately discounted it because my greenhouse is 8ft above ground. It didn't occur to me that you can compost in containers. I haven't tried tending to compost so I don't know much about it. I just throw material in a pile and after a few years it is usable. I imagine it would throw heat for a few months if you did it right. It sounds messy and heavy, but possible.
Back to top
brianPA2
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 09 Mar 2013
Posts: 119
Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania (6b)

Posted: Thu 24 Oct, 2013 5:40 pm

While I suspect the containerized compost idea isn't practical I started doing a little research. This site http://www.spur.org/publications/library/report/critical_cooling/option13 seems to suggest that the *best case* energy potential from a ton of compost is 1300 kilowatt hours per ton, or 0.65/lb, or 2250 btus/lb. I forget how many btus I need.
Back to top
brianPA2
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 09 Mar 2013
Posts: 119
Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania (6b)

Posted: Wed 13 Nov, 2013 4:04 pm

Am I correct in assuming that there may be no benefit, or a negative benefit, of using thermal storage (i.e. water jugs or similar) if temperatures are allowed to drop below 55F at night, but are still above freezing?

Right now my little heater isn't sized to maintain 55F at night with <32F outside temperatures despite its thermostat being set at 55F. This will be fixed, but not immediately. I have my pots sitting on sealed 5gal water buckets but I am thinking this is preventing the roots from quickly heating up to 55F+ in the sun when they need it.

Also, I'm trying to find a source of bulk glauber's salt. Most places only sell food or lab grade in small quanitities.
Back to top
bussone
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 30 Apr 2013
Posts: 68
Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA

Posted: Tue 19 Nov, 2013 7:57 pm

brianPA2 wrote:
I've read that room air should be turned over a minimum of about twice per hour in a greenhouse. In my zone 6a with below-freezing temperatures most of the winter it seems very wasteful to be pumping heated air right out the window. Are there any standard approaches to conserve heat while getting fresh air? Like using a heat exchanger to heat the incoming air with the outgoing air?

I have seen Millet's approach with painted-black, water-filled drums to retain heat but I could not do this as my greenhouse will be above ground and I could not have much water before exceeding the load rating of the structure. However there is a material used for thermal storage that stores more heat for its weight as it melts and freezes at 64.4F. Seems to be cheap and safe to store. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_sulfate#Thermal_storage

This page http://www.agrisk.umn.edu/cache/ARL01480.htm has some other good ideas and mentions that 2.5gal of water per sq foot of glazing is enough, which for me is only 940gal which is well under the load limit of the floor.


How big is your garage? 940 gallons is 125 cubic feet of water, and weighs about 8000-lbf. My garage is probably around 20ftx20ft -- that would fill it to a depth of 4 inches.
Back to top
brianPA2
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 09 Mar 2013
Posts: 119
Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania (6b)

Posted: Tue 19 Nov, 2013 9:13 pm

bussone wrote:
brianPA2 wrote:
I've read that room air should be turned over a minimum of about twice per hour in a greenhouse. In my zone 6a with below-freezing temperatures most of the winter it seems very wasteful to be pumping heated air right out the window. Are there any standard approaches to conserve heat while getting fresh air? Like using a heat exchanger to heat the incoming air with the outgoing air?

I have seen Millet's approach with painted-black, water-filled drums to retain heat but I could not do this as my greenhouse will be above ground and I could not have much water before exceeding the load rating of the structure. However there is a material used for thermal storage that stores more heat for its weight as it melts and freezes at 64.4F. Seems to be cheap and safe to store. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_sulfate#Thermal_storage

This page http://www.agrisk.umn.edu/cache/ARL01480.htm has some other good ideas and mentions that 2.5gal of water per sq foot of glazing is enough, which for me is only 940gal which is well under the load limit of the floor.


How big is your garage? 940 gallons is 125 cubic feet of water, and weighs about 8000-lbf. My garage is probably around 20ftx20ft -- that would fill it to a depth of 4 inches.


My garage roof/greenhouse floor is about 20ft deep by 24ft wide, similar to yours.

I was hoping to find some thermal storage material to use rather than water. I haven't been able to find a source for reasonable quanities. Basically you can find either lab-grade for $1/lb or a shipping container full for $200/ton Smile
Back to top
brianPA2
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 09 Mar 2013
Posts: 119
Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania (6b)

Posted: Tue 19 Nov, 2013 11:10 pm

My joists measure 9" thick with 16" on center spacing. I think the 9" is actually 9.25" which means 2x10 lumber.

I am having a really hard time finding a calculator that tell me load capacity for a span, instead of the reverse. But it seems that 2x10 construction can handle at least 20lbs/sq ft static load over a 10ft span. 20ftx24ft is 480sq. ft. which is 9600lbs.

9600/8.3 (lbs/gal water) = 1156gallons of water or 21 55gal drums or 231 5gal buckets.

Uh, I must have done some math wrong either way earlier or just now as that is more than enough. I'm glad you mentioned this.

I have been looking into phase change materials and they look too expensive anyway. Glauber's salt and similar materials are supposedly unstable over time and separate, losing effectiveness. I think water will have to do after all.

EDIT: I think the limitation is the middle support beam and not the joists themselves. I don't think adding unnecessary weight is a good idea.
Back to top
hardyvermont
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 05 Jun 2011
Posts: 61
Location: Anderson, SC

Posted: Tue 19 Nov, 2013 11:34 pm

Brian,
Why can't you put a large insulated water container in the garage, and a small pump to move water through pipes in the room during the day to cool it, and return heat at night.

I saw a system like this for a solar hot water system. You can build the container out of cement blocks and styrofoam.

Since you don't need to control temperatures nearly as much, it would be much simpler to install.
Back to top
brianPA2
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 09 Mar 2013
Posts: 119
Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania (6b)

Posted: Wed 20 Nov, 2013 10:08 pm

hardyvermont wrote:
Brian,
Why can't you put a large insulated water container in the garage, and a small pump to move water through pipes in the room during the day to cool it, and return heat at night.

I saw a system like this for a solar hot water system. You can build the container out of cement blocks and styrofoam.

Since you don't need to control temperatures nearly as much, it would be much simpler to install.


This is an interesting idea. I think I am out of time for complex changes this season, but I will have to think about this next spring once I have room to work again. Once I get the power bill for this month I will have a better idea of the payoff time for these energy storage systems.
Back to top
bussone
Citruholic
Citruholic


Joined: 30 Apr 2013
Posts: 68
Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA

Posted: Mon 25 Nov, 2013 6:56 pm

brianPA2 wrote:
My joists measure 9" thick with 16" on center spacing. I think the 9" is actually 9.25" which means 2x10 lumber.

I am having a really hard time finding a calculator that tell me load capacity for a span, instead of the reverse. But it seems that 2x10 construction can handle at least 20lbs/sq ft static load over a 10ft span. 20ftx24ft is 480sq. ft. which is 9600lbs.

9600/8.3 (lbs/gal water) = 1156gallons of water or 21 55gal drums or 231 5gal buckets.

Uh, I must have done some math wrong either way earlier or just now as that is more than enough. I'm glad you mentioned this.

I have been looking into phase change materials and they look too expensive anyway. Glauber's salt and similar materials are supposedly unstable over time and separate, losing effectiveness. I think water will have to do after all.

EDIT: I think the limitation is the middle support beam and not the joists themselves. I don't think adding unnecessary weight is a good idea.


It's a lot of weight.

Basically: would you park two sedans in your attic? Because that would weigh about the same amount. There's a reason your garage floor has a 12" concrete pour. =)
Back to top
Citrus Growers Forum Index du Forum -> Greenhouse growing
Goto 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2
Informations
Qui est en ligne ? Our users have posted a total of 66068 messages
We have 3235 registered members on this websites
Most users ever online was 70 on Tue 30 Oct, 2012 10:12 am

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group