Hi,

My father-in-law is trying to decide if making a commercial Lisbon lemon garden on Flying Dragon is a good move.
I believe not because our soil is not good for P.trifoliata or FD, PH is high like 7-7,5, the soil is calcareous etc...

But for now, the main point is the volume of a mature tree and the yield.
I know the trees on FD will be too small but he think we can plant them close to each other like 120cm.

On Monrovia.com, it is written that;

Quote:

Mature size: Vigorous growing to 30 ft. tall and 25 ft. wide.

Can you verify that with your own experiences?

And yield... Do your trees on FD produce similar yield to trees on other rootstocks.I don't mean the age, of course a dwarf tree will produce less fruit when you compare with another tree but please compare it on base of tree volume, I hope you understand what I mean, I can't find the right word

Shortly, I know most of your trees are on FD rootstock, do you recommend it as a commercial garden rootstock?

I will be searching for documents but I want to hear personal experiences.

Thanks a lot

I found this here;

Quote:

Flying Dragon is a dwarf selection of trifoliate orange that has been evaluated as a rootstock in California, Louisiana, and Florida since the late 1970s. When sweet oranges or other types of citrus are budded onto this rootstock, the trees produced are about 1/5 to 1/3 normal size. Trees can be planted every 6 to 8 feet in rows, with rows 7 to 15 feet apart. This rootstock has not been evaluated in Alabama. Researchers are concerned that tree size and yields may be too small for commercial use, but limited grower trials look promising. However, Flying Dragon is suggested to home producers who would like to grow citrus trees that may never become taller than 6 to 7 feet. It would also add variety to the landscape.

Thanks Laaz, I know it, I was wondering about yield and I read that yield is small for commercial planting, so we skip that option

I don't know if it would matter much, but one benefit of smaller trees is reduced labor and equipment cost--no ladders needed. The higher density planting and reduced labor might offset bigger trees and higher production.

I only have 2 trees on FD stock--I bought from brite leaf--one was Minneola (I have added orange and mandarin) and one Moro--both are in their 2nd full growing season here and have grown quite a bit--now 4-5 ft, but no fruit yet.

THe rootstock of choice in places like Texas and Arizona where the pH is high is the sour orange. At least thats what Ive read. Here in my area, High PH is not a problem and flying dragon and regular trifoliate do fine. Sour orange or rough lemon would probably be good for your lemon grove.

Hi Stan,

Yes, sour orange is the main rootstock here and it works well but presuming CTV effects in near future, we all test new rootstocks.I had a meeting with a prof. from the univercity and we agreed that no rootstocks can substitute sour orange YET.
We are thinking of using Volcameriana but even my city is one of the hottest city of country, it is still doubtful if it is hot enough for Volcameriana.
So the prof. recommended that we can use sour orange and volcameriana together in a high density garden.
We will check if Volcameriana will survive winters, if so we will keep them.

The advantage of Volcameriana is the high yield when young but prof. told us it is observed that the yield goes down when the tree is 10 years old or older.It produces same amount of fruit as sour orange after 10 years.

So, if they survive we will harvest fruits in 2-3 years and will continue harvesting high amount of fruit in first 10 years.After 10 years we will see if CTV is a problem, if so we will remove sour orange budded trees.If not, we will remove Volcameriana trees.

This is the plan

Citrus varieties propagated on FD rootstock are reduced in size, which allows a higher tree number or density per acre, fewer if any hedging and topping (pruning) costs, and easier fruit harvesting on smaller trees. Trees on trifoliate rootstock are often smaller sized when grown in deep, sandy soils even with irrigation. Trifoliate orange is a satisfactory rootstock for most sweet orange cultivars, especially navels. Bud union incompatibility has been reported when trifoliate orange is used as a rootstock for mandarins and mandarin hybrids. Trees budded on trifoliate orange produce excellent fruit, with high sugars, good juice color, and a smooth thin peel. Fruit, especially for the fresh market, can be small because of heavy fruit set. When used as a rootstock, trifoliate orange can produce a standard size tree, about 15 feet tall, on clay and loamy soils. Because trifoliate orange does not develop a deep or widely ranging root system, it is not drought hardy. It is poorly adapted to saline soils and is especially poorly adapted to calcareous conditions. The rootstock does well in clay soil and wet soils. Trifoliate orange is tolerant to citrus nematodes, phytophthora, xyloporosis, and tristeza virus. Great root stock for containerized trees. - Millet

Would you believe that in one of the citrus publications from UC Riverside, that deals with rootstocks have misspelled Volkameriana with Volckameriana, just like the horticultural oil Volck. I got a whipping from MrTexas about that.

But that pales in comparison to the spelling of Midknight and Rohde Red Valencias which are ALWAYS misspelled by many citrus growers, including some reputable nurseries as Midnight and Rhode respectively.

'Not to mention you can get free labor at harvest time if you plant Flying Dragon. We went to the U-Pick apple orchards nearby yesterday and my kids had a blast picking apples at their levels.

The only downside was the "certified organic" grower that we stumbled upon wanted $25 per bag of apples. I thought it was highway robbery until I saw that for every apple that went into our bag there were about 10 on the ground that someone picked and threw onto the ground.

Phillip

Ops, I am sorry that I misspelled Citrus volkameriana.When the names are not in my own language, I read too fast and misspell sometimes.
But I am totally agree that Mr.Volkamer deserves more respect, I will pay more attention

Quote:

For Lemons, in combination with sour orange stock, CTV is not a problem.

This is very interesting Steve.I googled it but there are two many tags in search, I am not able to find a document about this situation.Do you have a url about this, it is the first time I have ever heard this information.

Quote:

That's true, but the problem is the quality. With about 14° brix up to 15° brix sour orange is a mark in fruit quality and internal characteristics, like acid:sugar ration, TSS, TA and so on... Sweet oranges on Volkamer Lemon, to compare, reach only 10 to 11° brix with a much more worth inner quality...

The professor mentioned that acid/sugar ratio but we thought it will be somehow ok because we will grow lemons.
But if sour orange/lemon combination is fine, Volkameriana will be out of question.
I just need to research and read about it, thanks for the information.

Phillip, you are absolutely right, my kids don't let any kumquat to ripe

Best,

I have a very good friend in South Louisiana that is replanting as older trees die out, on flying dragon. Instead of costing him $3.00 a box for picking i the cost is $1.00. He is planting more trees to the acre and gets a good harvest. In my back yard there are 3 trees on FD that were originally planted at Nederland Tx in the spring of 1985. When we moved to Lumberton Tx in the fall of 1993 they were dug up and moved. The three trees, on FD were gave to my by Dr. Julian Sauls and were budded from scions that were indexed in 1983 and found to be virus free. They give my wife and myself more fruit that we can eat so a lot are shared with other people. The 3 cultivars are Armstrong Early, Owari, and Kimbrought.